The original Ginobili wasn't as talented as Harden but he shouldered more responsibility for the Argentinian national team. They went to win Bronze or Silver at the major tourneys.
His coach is Pop so yes it looks that way because his coach is Pop. There are simple things about the NBA some of you guys just don't get. COACHING AND SYSTEM MATTERS IT REALLY MATTERS. This isn't something people just make up. Your coach and GM design the culture of your team. Harden has been groomed by Moray and Mchale to be an one on one hero ball player. We've never really had a system we just relied on Harden and Howard's individual greatness. This was always doomed to fail, you guys had all these people screaming to fire Mchale for these specific reasons and now that this is happening you guys still don't get it. Morey overlooked discipline and system the minute he fired Adelman and hired Mchale. James Harden is what Houston made him. Why do you think Parsons had such a hard time with Rick Carlisle. He played one on one basketball and didn't play D, he got that from Houston. He didn't know how to play team ball, he got that from Houston. Mchale and Morey are at the core of whats going on now.
It's a two way street. Harden demands the system and the roster to be built around him. It's not only the GM and the coach. As long as Harden can't play or won't play off the ball or won't play defence it creates limitations to a) who the Gm should bring b) the system of the team. And yes Harden was affected by Brooks and Mchale. And so? He is now past the developmental phase of his game. He can still change some things and adapt but players with his years and age very rarely do and at a much lesser degree than young ones. Especially when said players are not role players who are doing their best to survive in the league, but stars.
The system never required harden to do those things. Ofcourse He can change but we need a new philosophy and coach and system. The way he plays is the result of Morey and his choices for coach and system. Only Morey can fix this.
Why would the Spurs even consider this? RC is a much better GM that Morey and knows how to build winning teams. He values guys with character, team players who play D and down to earth guys that will play team ball. That is the exact opposite of Harden RC and Spurs will laugh Maury off the phone. They will not even consider this
Give Kawhi another year to mature as a leader and he's going to be solid. I'd definitely get his for Harden straight up. The maturity level is incomparable.
Thank you. I've been on the fire McHale train since day one because of this. One time I've even said something like "I hope it's soon because he's going to ruin Harden." I'm sorry but everything that happens on the court is a reflection of the coach. McHale let Harden ISO top of the key...dribble for 18 seconds...then pass it off. He doesn't do this for team USA, he didn't do this for OKC. THAT is a thing he does for the Rockets because he's been allowed to do it. Time after time he's allowed to do it and the coach apparently says nothing about it, so it becomes a habit. You can continue to go on about this but some just won't ever understand. Coaching has taught this team bad habits. The main difference between the 2014 Warriors and the 2015 Warriors? Coaching. Under Mark Jackson... -Curry was no where near thought of as being a MVP player. A all-star when healthy -Draymon Green was just some hustle guy off the bench. - Harrison Barnes was a disappointment, lets get back to this later. He was shooting 39% from the field Under Jackson - The Warriors were getting smacked by the Rockets under the Warriors... - Were a playoff fodder team. Under Steve Kerr... - Curry is an all time great... - Draymond Green will get MVP votes, is an all-star - Harrison Barnes, remember him? Well under kerr that dude is now shooting 48% under Kerr. He just magically got better I guess. - Warriors now own the Rockets - They are now an all time great team. So no. Coaching is a big deal and if you put Kawhi on the Rockets not much changes. You will still get the same chuck up contested 3s team and stupid rotate every thing defense.
Everyone talked all the time this year about Harden playing off the ball. GM, Coach everyone. Sure he can change. I can also meet a millionaire tomorrow and marry him. Everything can happen. Until it does..IF it EVER does.. it's Kawhi hands down. Someone who isn't so problematic to fit others around him. The question wasn't if Spurs would do it, but if you as a fan would. Ofc the spurs wouldn't do it. Why trade a finals mvp and a dpoy who only gets better is younger is under control under more years when their team is doing that well?
Harden doesn't demand anything. He demanded to have better players around him which pretty much every superstar does. You'd be right to build a system around your best player, that's what you do. Also, he's not past the development part of his game. Skill wise...maybe. Mentally not even close. Players mentally change how they play all the time.
No just better players. A point guard who is very low usage, who can hit threes and play off the ball but if needed he can also playmake and meanwhile play elite defence and be versatile enough to also guard sgs to cover for Harden. Do you know how hard is to find one like that? There are maybe 3-4 players in the league who qualify for all that. He also NEEDS a wing who is a great defender and versatile enough to guard sgs and meanwhile be good enough shooter. That's also very hard to find. So stop that it's just our system. It's also the system and the roster that Harden needs. NOT saying that it can't get better. But until Harden decides to play off the ball and play defence his limitations shape the team too. It's two way street. Oh and Kawhi is not even finished skill wise in his development. He already improved this year with his skills and his shooting. But it's not against Harden that I say all that, since Kawhi is a top 3 player and MVP candidate and if it wasn't Curry in the middle he would be the favourite. Harden is a superstar but I would take Kawhi over him. Because Kawhi is that good.
Harden is problematic to fit around others? He wasn't on Team USA. Coach K In fact, Harden then became friends with players on the team. Had a good relationship with coaches, he was pretty much the leader of the team. Coach K again... So I don't know where this idea comes that he's a bad teammate or doesn't do what's best for the team. I think what we are saying, SF3 and myself is that Harden's heroball IS what the organization thinks is best for the team. On OKC being the 6th man was best for the team. Harden did it, happily. The only reason he left OKC was because they wanted to go cheap on him. On Team USA he was an off the ball player that played defense, he did it. In fact Harden's pre-nba coaches often said that you had to get the guy to be more aggressive at times (Something we even see sometimes from him today) so I don't buy it. He came here and the Rockets fed his confidence so that he could be a superstar that they needed but they now don't have a team around the superstar.
No doubt he got there because of coach pop and the system, I don't think anyone would deny that but what OP asked was if you would trade for the current Kawhi, who has already gone through the Spurs system and has been molded to the current player he is. In short, at the draft? No. But after years of being under a superior coach, yes. Moreh doesn't believe in coaching, this is evident by everything he has done regarding coaching so far. He just wants his coach to execute Moreyball, which is 3s and layups. It has worked in the d-league so Morey thinks it'll work in the NBA. Personally, I think it's stupid as hell and we should have proper coach implement a proper system.
He wasn't on team USA? WOW Ok then that's it. You won the argument. All we need is to field a team of MVP caliber players and all stars. Good idea. And play defence? Yeah? Against non NBA players? Good indication if a player plays good defence this is. I didnt' say that Harden is a bad teammate. Not at all. I said he has limitations and those limitations shape the system and teh roster of the team.
Funnily enough that guy is KYLE LOWRY that the Rockets GM passed on so that he could chase Carmelo Anthony. You see what some of us mean then? Kyle Lowry IS that guy that you just explained, a guy that plays defense, can play make, that can play off ball (Did so with Dragic) and instead the Rockets did what they do...chase superstars instead of chasing fits. Also, any wing that can guard a SF can guard a SG ALSO Harden can actually play defense and if he couldn't it's not that hard to make up for a poor defender as Thibs and JVGs entire coaching career has shown. Defense is about the team, never about the player. Redick can't check Harden...but it looks like he can because all he does is does as told. Funnel Harden to the shot blocker, Harden then has to force a difficult shot over Jordan or pass it out to a 3 point shooter who guess what...is now covered because the defense rotated over to him. That's playing team defense. This is not about what Harden decides, it's about what the coach decides. What you're saying is that Harden runs the team sets to the detriment of the team, if what you say is true then that means we have a weak coach that allows this. Also, Kawhi is no top 3 player. You are not going to convince me he's better than Durant, Westbrook, or Lebron.
Well if Harden played defence consistently and well and if Harden played off the ball then that would be a different discussion. But until he does IF he does I would take Kawhi over him. Lowry? Sure. But name me other 5 players who can coexist next to Harden that aren't all star caliber themselves? No. Not every wing who can guard sfs can guard sgs. Not at all. Bigger wings are slower and are often beat by sgs. Even if they can defend sfs acceptably not sgs. Absolutely I think that Kawhi is better than Westbrook. 100%. Now with Lebron this year yes. Kawhi has played this year much better than Lebron. Doesn't mean that peak Kawhi (who we have YET to see) is better than peak Lebron. But Lebron isn't peak anymore and this year he has played worse than Kawhi.
I'm sorry but your point was that Harden can't change his game. That he's so stubborn to play his way that he can't do it. That's what you said. His career past the Rockets prove you wrong there. EVERY single player has limitations. It's on the team to get players to play to their strengths. If you think Kawhi or Curry are perfect players then you are just flat out wrong. They have their limitations as well. You never see it because the coaching and scheme hides it. Again... Look at the Warriors under Jackson then look at the Warriors under Kerr. CURRY was not a top 3 player under Jackson, Under Kerr he's an all time great suddenly. This is not some coincidence. Kawhi Isn't going to make Lawson a better defender, he's not going to make Brew, Bev, and Smith better 3 point shooters. He's not going to make Capela an elite defender. It don't work like that. It just don't.
I love how Kawhi carries himself. Doesn't talk but still delivers every game. Granted the Spurs system puts him in optimal position to be effective, there's no denying the man has skills. Harden is ridiculous when all gears are running right though. I still have faith in surrounding Harden with an environment that allows him to develop properly. In the end no I wouldn't trade them straight up.
