I prefer for our own country to retrun to the democratic values we hold dear. In many respects we seem to have lost our way. In the debates the other nights one of the candidates mentioned that we won the Cold War with a strong military plus the fact that most people behind the Iron Curtain wanted to be like Americans. Today it would be hard to find many countries where a large majority of it's citizens want to be like Americans. The point is leading by example is a better way to spread democracy than at the barrel of a gun.
Sorry, right now the media is talking about how Bush blew the goodwill from 9/11 and nobody likes us. NY Times has such a story. The fact that the Iraqis actually like us will not help them play up that angle.
I agree. The United States has led by example by concluding a regime that did little than to mislead the world. The U.N. failed in its obligation to resolve the 10 year mess in Iraq. I understand some will object to the justification of the war, as I have no doubt oppugned myself. The aftermath of the war is disconcerting to say the least. But I think we have to remember it took seven years before we left Japan after we rebuilt it and $450 billion to rebuild Germany. I don't think now is the time to succumb to a knee-jerk reaction based on an article run in the NY Times or LA Times. I also understand public opinion can change in Iraq over time but we have to remember that there were most likely a ton of failures in Germany and Japan during our reconstruction of those countries but now they are prosperous nations in the world community. As for your assertion we have departed from our own values I don't think I follow.
Whether the Iraqis like us or not is of little moment in the long haul. They want their country back as soon as they can get it back, and they will want us to have less control of them than Bush et al will want to have. It's the wrong war at the wrong time. When the next horrific terror attack occurs here, the blame is on those who used 9/11 to hunt Saddam instead of Osama.
??? Please back up your assertions with evidence. Your post strikes me as pessimistic for no good reason.
For whoever raised it, the admin always invokes Germany and Japan when talking about Iraq. The dissimilarities are legion. The level of violence and anti-americanism in post war germany and japan was nowhere near what it is in Iraq. Condoleeza Rice in particular has been recounting BS tales about "wolf squadrons" of resistance fighters in Gerrmany. Official Army records indicate that these guys were just a bunch of teenagers who committed a handful of random acts of violence, (I don't thing more than 5 or 10, and maybe fewerfatalities were involved) for about a week or two or three after the war and then gave up. Germany and Japan were functional political and economic states before the War, with solid industrial bases. Iraq has never really had a state and relies on primary products, and has little industrial base. Radical Islam was also not prevalent in Germany or Japan as far as I knew, nor was the palestinian question pertinent at that time. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. 450 b for Germany? God, that makes me think the 87b for Iraq is unbelieveably optimistic.
Ummmm.... "• The toughest part of reconstructing their nation, Iraqis say by 3 to 1, will be politics, not economics. They are nervous about democracy. Asked which is closer to their own view -- "Democracy can work well in Iraq," or "Democracy is a Western way of doing things" -- five out of 10 said democracy is Western and won't work in Iraq. One in 10 wasn't sure. And four out of 10 said democracy can work in Iraq." Yeah, we're the ones who aren't seeing things straight...
these polls suck...all this time and effort and resources spent...and no one asks them the important questions....like whether or not they think J-Lo and Ben will actually get married...and whether their opinion of Britney diminished after the Madonna incident at the video music awards. man...what a freaking waste. wow, i've posted WAY too much here today.
No, I don't. I would, though, love to see how educated Iraqis feel about Democracy versus the illiterate majority. I bet the vast majority of educated Iraqis will opt for some form of socialistic Democracy.
Possibly. Depends on your definition of educated, I suppose. I don't know global trends, but I know that in the Western world the trend is more educated = more politically 'left'. I have no idea how that would translate to Iraq, with so many other variables at play. I did find the numbers on the possibility of a theocracy interesting in a positive sense, and contrary to what I would have expected, to be honest. That said, given the situation there now, I am not willing to call this test sample 'typical'.
More educated in the West = more politically'left'? LOL, I guess we need the definition of "educated". Educated in Liberal Arts, or educated to be successful in business? There are many different types of education, but I don't want a very important point to get lost in partisan bickering. The folks who are "more politically left" in Iraq today will no doubt favor Democracy. In an environment of educational haves and have nots, there is no doubt that the educated folks would have a much more open mind in terms of possible government solutions. In my opinion, it is unfair to the educated minority to cater to an illiterate majority that has little chance of comprehending what choices are being presented to them.
haha i love all you guys and this section is the only part of the BBS worth reading these days. please never stop
It wasn't meant to be a partisan comment, jh. Fact is the more educated, the more the group leans to the left. I am not connecting intelligence with left wing thinking, just education, and the fact bear this out. Less than HS education, predominantly right wing. HS education, same. Undergrad, about even, leaning to the left a little. Masters level grad, leaning left, Doctorate, very much leaning to the left. This despite a tendanvy among some major professions, such as Law and Medicine ( to a lesser degree) towards the right. This isn't opinion, this is factual. But, again, this wasn't meant as a shot at the right at all, as there are several possible explanations for these tendencies which neither validate or invalidate either end of the spectrum, so please refrain from taking dismissive swipes in defense of the right, I wasn't attacking. That said, your last point is a bit frightening, and is premised on the position that an educated man knows better what the average Iraqi wants then an uneducated one. It might be true...or it might be indicative of different classes with different educational levels and different social priorities. It is way to subjective a leap to make to suppose the position you adovace, and if a democratic system is going to work it has to be a genuine reflection of the common priorities, not the 'better' ones from a particular perspective. I am also skeptical that our version of democracy will work over there. I am more hopefull that, after some turmoil, they will arrive at the system that works best for them, but only if we stop trying to dictate to them what kind of system they have to have based on our own satisfaction with the way it worlks for us.
Macbeth, I just read your sig for the first time and realized it was Southey's classic poem and line. It bears repeating in full since it is of particular relevance. After Blenheim Robert Southey (1774–1843) IT was a summer evening, Old Kaspar’s work was done, And he before his cottage door Was sitting in the sun; And by him sported on the green His little grandchild Wilhelmine. She saw her brother Peterkin Roll something large and round Which he beside the rivulet In playing there had found; He came to ask what he had found That was so large and smooth and round. Old Kaspar took it from the boy Who stood expectant by; And then the old man shook his head, And with a natural sigh ‘’Tis some poor fellow’s skull,’ said he. ‘Who fell in the great victory. ‘I find them in the garden, For there’s many here about; And often when I go to plough The ploughshare turns them out. For many thousand men,’ said he, ‘Were slain in that great victory.’ ‘Now tell us what ’twas all about,’ Young Peterkin he cries; And little Wilhelmine looks up With wonder-waiting eyes; ‘Now tell us all about the war, And what they fought each other for.’ ‘It was the English,’ Kaspar cried, ‘Who put the French to rout; But what they fought each other for I could not well make out. But everybody said,’ quoth he, ‘That ’twas a famous victory. ‘My father lived at Blenheim then, Yon little stream hard by; They burnt his dwelling to the ground, And he was forced to fly: So with his wife and child he fled, Nor had he where to rest his head. ‘With fire and sword the country round Was wasted far and wide, And many a childing mother then And newborn baby died: But things like that, you know, must be At every famous victory. ‘They say it was a shocking sight After the field was won; For many thousand bodies here Lay rotting in the sun: But things like that, you know, must be After a famous victory. ‘Great praise the Duke of Marlbro’ won And our good Prince Eugene;’ ‘Why ’twas a very wicked thing!’ Said little Wilhelmine; ‘Nay . . nay . . my little girl,’ quoth he, ‘It was a famous victory. ‘And every body praised the Duke Who this great fight did win.’ ‘But what good came of it at last?’ Quoth little Peterkin:— ‘Why that I cannot tell,’ said he, ‘But ’twas a famous victory.’
