The "prevalence of youth on this team" is a bunch of bull ****. Francis has been in the league 4 years, Mobley for 5. They are now vets. Taylor has been around for some time as has Cato, Obviously not to the Rice degree, but they are vets. Youth my ass! Rudy had: * 4 years with Francis He did not improve SF's game, and SF developed NO team skills. * Cat for 5 and it could be argued that he got better the first couple years, but since has gotten worse. * Ming had his best games at the start of the season. Remember the highlight reel passes early on??? Notice how little of that you saw later in the season? Ming developed in some areas, but much of his game was better early than it seemed to be by the middle of the season. * EG has been EG. He has not shown much desire, but at the same time (PER RUDY) EG played at the 3pt line despite the fact Rudy told him not to shoot or play there as much. If you lose the team, you are screwed. There were several times last season Rudy came on his show and stated that a player did not do what he drew up. What the hell ever happened with the vaunted "5-Man Offense" ? ? ? The team was not buying into what he was preaching. That is why that team was so unentertaining. It was like watching playground ball. If you think for a minute that SF, Mobley, EG, Ming, Taylor Cato and the bunch were a year of experience away from making the playoffs, I think you may want to check yourself into a hospital.
I would say yes. There are other teams who had simular records last season who did more to get better than the Rockets. Without a doubt. While we are at it, let me ask you something. Is the greatest duo splitting up thus allowing the Rockets to get into the playoffs by default mean that Francis & Mobley got better? Or did Rudy do a better job of coaching? Is that enough progress for you? For me, f*ck no! Are you satisfied with a 7-8 seed and getting trounced in the first round? If so, you are quite easy to please.
Not all players improve. It is more reasonable to assume young players to improve with experience more than the average player in the NBA. Teams like the Suns and the Rockets have not changed their rosters much, but people expect them to improve because they are young teams. My point is, just because the team win more (we are still waiting to see) this year than last year is not in itself a proof that we have better coaching than last year.
Whether youth was the "excuse" or "reality" for last year's "failure" (for the record, I don't think last year was a failure) has been debated at length on this board. I am not going to reharsh all the arguments. Let me just say this. Those who think youth is an excuse usually conveniently brush aside the fact that one of our starters was a rookie from halfway around the world, and another was a 20-year-old 2nd year player. And two key veteran backups (Taylor and Rice) were coming off long injury absense. The only veterans who have been playing together for long was the three guards, and one of which had nothing to show other than his hair. Even Francis and Mobley had very limited experience in playing a center-oriented game in the NBA. To think that this group will not improve (no matter who the coach is) with one year of experience of playing together is not looking at the facts.
Golden State and Seattle were the only teams with 'similar' records. Golden State lost their two best players. What did Seattle do? It must be something good ("without a doubt"). I'll need you to refresh my memory there. Teams are measured by their performance relative to other teams, are they not? When the Celtics got old, did the Pistons pass them up 'by default'? I'm satisfied with a 7-8 seed for this team, sure. It's called being realistic.
And your criteria that it is/was coaching would be...what? The Rox win as many games but have substantially more lost time to injuries than 2002-03? A 48 win, 6th seed? An 8th seed and advancing to the 2nd round? A playoff team that isn't dead last (or nearly dead last) in FB points, pts off turnovers and assists per made FG? Step up to the plate and quantify this. BTW, if the team wins fewer games, are you willing to concede it's not coaching if...Francis's ear infection returns? Mobley is out for 2 months with recurring ankle problems? Yao (for whatever reasons) has less stamina than his rookie season? The Rox are clueless in grasping JVG's offense?
Is so . . .someone pull the Mask of this LES looking person because . .it is really . .. . JERRY JONES!! Rocket River
Frankly, I don't think there is an easy way to evaluate the effectiveness of a coach. I've been saying all along, and there are others on the board who agree, that for one, most of the coach's job is not known to the public. For two, the coach's impact to a team is not as great as the core players. For three, coaching style and team characteristics need to match. A good coach for one team might not be good for another. There are good coaches and bad coaches. Those who can make a living coaching in the NBA for a long time can't be very bad. I just don't think you can make a linear list ranking which coach is better than the other.
If JVG wins more with this group than Rudy then JVG coached THIS GROUP better than Rudy did. Bum talks about how Bear Bryant could 'take his'n and beat yours'n or yours'n and beat his'n'. This is not about that.
Difference is, we had the second youngest team last year. LA, while acquiring a ton of talent, are also VERY old ala the Rox with Glide, Dream, and Mound.
The only team with a similar record was Phoenix and ... (I went and checked suns.com) ... they didn't add anything big. The Jazz won't make the playoffs this year and the Sonics haven't done anything major, either. What team with a similar record are you referring to? Obviously not, but that was a team with a similar record that went way WAY backwards this offseason. We will never know. I suppose that there is the outside possibility that adding Payton and Malone to our lineup MIGHT have gotten us to the finals, but those guys wanted more of a guaranteed ring. I personally think we will compete for the 5 and 6 seed through most of the season and have an outside shot of making the second round if EG comes around like I think he will. We put ourselves solidly in the standings up to the trade deadline, and if a great deal for a trade for Rice comes up, grab a good, young SF to help in the playoffs.
First, semantically "youngest" refers to chronological age. "Experience" is years in the NBA. Second, the Rockets being a "young" team was a bunch of BS that began as an incorrect comment made by a broadcaster early last season and became erroneously perpetuated on this board. Here are the true facts based upon ages as of today 09/11/03: DAL Josh Howard.............23.5 Jiri Welsch.................23.7 Dirk Nowitzk..............25.3 Raja Bell (FA).............27.1 Eduardo Najera.........27.3 Antawn Jamison........27.3 Raef LaFrentz............27.4 Danny Fortson...........27.6 Tariq Abdul-Wahad....29.0 Steve Nash................29.7 Michael Finley............30.6 Travis Best.................31.3 Shawn Bradley...........31.6 Walt Williams (FA)......33.5 Chris Mills...................33.7 DAL AVG = 28.6 DAL AVG w/o Walt Williams = 28.2 DEN Carmelo Anthony.......19.4 Nikoloz Tskitishvili......20.5 Nenê..........................21.1 Vincent Yarbrough.....22.6 Junior Harrington.......23.0 Donnell Harvey (FA)...23.1 Rodney White............23.3 Jeff Trepagnier...........24.3 Chris Andersen..........25.3 Earl Boykins...............27.4 Andre Miller................27.6 Ryan Bowen...............27.9 Shammond Williams...28.5 Marcus Camby............29.6 Jon Barry....................34.2 DEN AVG = 25.2 GSW Mickael Pietrus.........21.7 Jason Richardson......22.7 Mike Dunleavy Jr.......23.1 Troy Murphy..............23.4 Speedy Claxton........25.4 Pepe Sanchez...........26.4 Evan Eschmeyer........28.4 Adonal Foyle..............28.6 Erick Dampier............29.3 Nick Van Exel.............31.9 Calbert Cheaney........32.3 Popeye Jones.............33.3 Clifford Robinson........36.9 Avery Johnson............38.6 GSW AVG = 28.7 GSW AVG Less Popeye and Avery = 27.5 LAC Chris Wilcox.............21.1 Chris Kaman.............21.4 Keyon Dooling..........23.4 Quentin Richardson..23.5 Corey Maggette.......23.9 Elton Brand...............24.6 Marko Jaric................25.0 Eddie House..............25.4 Melvin Ely..................25.4 Wang Zhizhi..............26.3 Tremaine Fowlkes.....27.5 Cherokee Parks (FA).31.0 Olden Polynice...........38.9 LAC AVG = 26.0 LAL AVG = 30.0 MEM Dahntay Jones.........22.8 Troy Bell...................22.9 Pau Gasol .................23.3 Mike Miller.................23.6 Stromile Swift............23.9 Cezary Trybanski.......24.1 Ryan Humphrey.........24.2 Earl Watson...............24.3 Shane Battier.............25.1 James Posey..............26.8 Jason Williams...........27.9 Brevin Knight.............27.9 Lorenzen Wright........27.9 Michael Dickerson......28.3 Wesley Person..........32.6 MEM AVG = 25.7 MINN AVG = 29.4 PHX Amare Stoudemire....20.9 Joe Johnson..............22.3 Zarko Cabarkapa......22.4 Casey Jacobsen........22.6 Jake Tsakalidis..........24.3 Shawn Marion...........25.4 Jake Voskuh..............25.9 Stephon Marbury......26.6 Anfernee Hardaway..32.3 Bo Outlaw.................32.5 Tom Gugliotta............33.8 Scott Williams............35.6 PHX AVG = 27.1 POR Zach Randolph.........22.2 Qyntel Woods..........22.6 Boumtje Boumtje......25.4 Bonzi Wells...............27.1 Ruben Patterson.......28.2 Jeff McInnis................29.0 Rasheed Wallace.......29.1 Derek Anderson.........29.3 Damon Stoudamire....30.1 Dale Davis..................34.6 POR AVG = 27.8 SAC AVG = 32.0 SAS Tony Parker.............21.4 Hidayet Turkoglu......24.6 Emanuel Ginobili.......26.2 Radoslav Nesterovic ..27.4 Ron Mercer................27.4 Tim Duncan...............27.5 Anthony Carter..........28.3 Malik Rose..................28.9 Bruce Bowen..............32.4 Robert Horry...............33.2 Steve Smith (FA).........34.6 Kevin Willis.................41.2 SAS AVG = 29.41 SAS AVG w/o Willis and Smith = 27.7 SEA Joseph Forte............22.5 Luke Ridnour............22.7 Vladimir Radmanovic..22.9 Nick Collison.............23.0 Rashard Lewis..........24.2 Ansu Sesay...............27.2 Calvin Booth..............27.4 Jerome James............27.9 Predrag Drobnjak......28.0 Ray Allen....................28.2 Vitaly Potapenko.......28.6 Antonio Daniels.........28.6 Brent Barry................31.8 SEA AVG = 26.4 UTA DeShawn Stevenson.22.5 Andrei Kirilenko.........22.6 Curtis Borchardt........23.1 Raul Lopez................23.5 Carlos Arroyo............24.2 Jarron Collins............24.9 Michael Ruffin............26.7 Matt Harpring............27.4 Scott Padgett (FA).....27.5 Keon Clark.................28.5 Greg Ostertag............30.6 John Amaechi..............32.9 UTA AVG = 26.2 HOU Eddie Griffin...............21.4 Yao Ming....................23.1 Bostjan Nachbar........23.3 Steve Francis.............26.6 Maurice Taylor............27.0 Cuttino Mobley...........28.1 Kelvin Cato................29.1 Adrian Griffin..............29.3 Moochie Norris...........30.2 Eric Piatkowski...........33.1 Glen Rice....................36.4 HOU AVG = 28.0 As you can see, other than the Lakers, Kings and TWolves, the Rockets are not substantially "younger" than the rest of the WC. I stand by my original statement...it is absolutely incorrect to assume that only the Rockets players will improve over the course of a summer.
The truth of the matter is, yes; those ages aren't more youthful than all those other teams you listed. But as far as experience, which is what a lot of people in this thread are saying the Rockets gained coming into this year, the Rox were the league's second most inexperienced team last year. Take away Glen Rice, who doesn't barely play anyway, and they were the team with the least amount of cumulative NBA experience last season.
While your were away, the "inexperienced" myth was also debunked. I don't have the time right but it was also BS.
GATER, I agree with you completely, but you have to admit that Yao Ming has more space for improvement than most of the NBA, and that he is most likely to fill that potential, simply because he's better rested and will have a training camp. It is logival to assume that Yao, Amare, Caron and Boozer (for example) will all learn just as much over the summer to become better than last year. But Yao will add a training camp, more rest than last season, and a coach specifically assigned to tutor him. Let's not forget, he's going to be the centerpiece of the Rockets offense next year. Aside from that, I take much pride out of the fact that our team are generally a bunch of gym rats: MoT Griffin Rice (last season at least) Francis Mobley Yao Moochie this season Even Cato to some people Our core is generally consists of players who go into the summer to improve the team and themselves, and BECAUSE of that, I think we have more room for improvement. Also, we were much younger last year I believe. We removed Maddox and Posey, while adding Pike and Griffin so far. So I think people were probably damn close or accurate when saying we were second youngest, right? (Assumption)
Dude, I'm serious...I looked it up on NBA.com last year and that was where the Rockets were. I just can't find a stats sortable that can prove it right now. Seriously though...I saw it with my own eyes. But as far as age goes, they've added 2 players who were over their 28 year age average, and they didn't draft anybody in this year's draft. Almost every other team has a first round draft pick or two to aid in reducing their overall team's age, but the Rockets just have 2 veterans over the age of 29 to show for this summer. The vets will probably make more of an impact anyways.
off the top of my head gone hawkins 29 maddox 21-22 collier 25 posey 26 added pike 33 adrian 29 everyone else 1 year older, so the average automatically increases at least one year. cat 28 steve 26 mo 27 rice 37 eddie 21 yao 23 boki 23 mooch 30 cato 29 we are young in the paint, with Eddie at 21 and Yao at 23, but backed up by Mo at 27 and Cato at 29.
Dude - This ain't last year. IOW, Pike and AGriff have been around longer than Posey. Sorry to break your bubble but here are the facts. And Rice is going to start. Josh Howard R Jiri Welsch 1 Dirk Nowitzki 5 Raja Bell (FA) 3 Eduardo Najera 3 Antawn Jamison 5 Raef LaFrentz 5 Danny Fortson 6 Tariq Abdul-Wahad 6 Steve Nash 7 Michael Finley 8 Travis Best 8 Shawn Bradley 10 Walt Williams (FA) 11 Chris Mills 10 DAL AVG = 6.3 Carmelo Anthony R Nikoloz Tskitishvili 1 Nenê 1 Vincent Yarbrough 1 Junior Harrington 1 Donnell Harvey (FA) 3 Rodney White 2 Jeff Trepagnier 2 Chris Andersen 2 Earl Boykins 5 Andre Miller 4 Ryan Bowen 4 Shammond Williams (FA) 5 Marcus Camby 7 Jon Barry 11 DEN AVG = 3.5 Mickael Pietrus R Jason Richardson 2 Mike Dunleavy Jr. 1 Troy Murphy 2 Speedy Claxton 2 Pepe Sanchez 2 Evan Eschmeyer 4 Adonal Foyle 6 Erick Dampier 7 Nick Van Exel 10 Calbert Cheaney 10 Popeye Jones 10 Clifford Robinson 14 Avery Johnson 15 GSW AVG = 6.54 GSW w/o Popeye and AJ = 5.45 Sofoklis Schortsanitis** R Chris Wilcox 1 Chris Kaman R Marcus Hatten R Keyon Dooling 3 Quentin Richardson 3 Corey Maggette 4 Elton Brand 4 Marko Jaric 1 Eddie House 3 Melvin Ely 1 Wang Zhizhi 3 Tremaine Fowlkes 2 Cherokee Parks (FA) 8 Olden Polynice 14 LAC AVG = 3.6 LAL AVG = 7.9 Dahntay Jones R Troy Bell R Pau Gasol 2 Mike Miller 3 Stromile Swift 3 Cezary Trybanski 1 Ryan Humphrey 1 Earl Watson 2 Shane Battier 2 James Posey 4 Jason Williams 5 Brevin Knight 6 Lorenzen Wright 7 Michael Dickerson 5 Wesley Person 9 MEM AVG = 3.3 MINN AVG = 7.6 Leandrinho Barbosa R Amare Stoudemire 1 Joe Johnson 2 Zarko Cabarkapa R Casey Jacobsen 1 Jake Tsakalidis 3 Shawn Marion 4 Jake Voskuhl 3 Stephon Marbury 7 Anfernee Hardaway 10 Bo Outlaw 10 Tom Gugliotta 11 Scott Williams PHX AVG = 5.4 Travis Outlaw R Zach Randolph 2 Qyntel Woods Ruben Boumtje Boumtje 2 Bonzi Wells 5 Ruben Patterson 5 Jeff McInnis 6 Rasheed Wallace 8 Derek Anderson 6 Damon Stoudamire 8 Dale Davis 12 POR AVG = 5.4 SAC AVG = 8.8 Tony Parker 2 Hidayet Turkoglu 3 Emanuel Ginobili 1 Radoslav Nesterovic 5 Ron Mercer 6 Tim Duncan 6 Anthony Carter 4 Malik Rose 7 Bruce Bowen 7 Robert Horry 11 Steve Smith (FA) 12 Kevin Willis 18 SAS AVG = 8.5 SAS AVG w/o Smith and Willis = 5.2 Joseph Forte 2 Luke Ridnour R Vladimir Radmanovic 2 Nick Collison R Rashard Lewis 5 Ansu Sesay Calvin Booth 4 Jerome James 3 Predrag Drobnjak 2 Ray Allen 7 Vitaly Potapenko 7 Antonio Daniels 6 Brent Barry 8 SEA AVG = 3.5 Aleksandar Pavlovic R DeShawn Stevenson 3 Andrei Kirilenko 2 Curtis Borchardt R Raul Lopez R Carlos Arroyo 2 Jarron Collins 2 Michael Ruffin 3 Matt Harpring 5 Scott Padgett (FA) 4 Keon Clark 5 Greg Ostertag 8 John Amaechi 5 UTA AVG = 3.0 Malick Badiane** R Eddie Griffin 2 Yao Ming 1 Bostjan Nachbar 1 Steve Francis 4 Maurice Taylor 5 Cuttino Mobley 5 Kelvin Cato 6 Adrian Griffin 4 Moochie Norris 6 Eric Piatkowski 9 Glen Rice 14 HOU AVG = 5.2 HOU w/o Rice = 3.9
I know, that's my whole point...it's not last year and the Rockets have added and gained experience. That factor in addition to Van Gundy should equal a bit more success. That's all I'm saying, and I'm sure we agree on this one. As far as the premise of the thread goes, I would expect that experience gained through another year and through the 2 signings should play a more significant role in the fact that the Rockets will make the playoffs this year (barring major injuries) than the "challenge" of JVG to better Rudy T; or just JVG himself.
