If china attacks Taiwan, what do you think America will do ?

what andymoon said

 

I've never known any from the island to call themselves Chinese, except those with direct ties to the group Chiang brought with him. The ROC guys who dreamed for two decades of retaking the mainland.

I got to go to Chiang's birthday party in Taiwan in 1970. Not HIS party, but the party the town threw. They start on DOUBLE TEN DAY, October 10th, the date on which Dr. Sun Yatzen (I think, I'm winging it here) declared the independence in about 1924. The party goes for three weeks, culminating in the Generalismo's birthday on October 31st.

It was more fun than any white boy from Texas ever had. I love that island. I love the beach on the northeast. I love the aborigines in the mountains. I love Green Lake. I love the train ride through the mountains to the port city on the southwest. I love Mongolian barbeque on the river. I love the temple of a 1000 steps.

Now, if I love it as a westerner, how much more do those who live there, who were born there, love it?

I'm not saying that no Taiwanese claim a Chinese heritage, but like those who live here, that heritage does not mean they will accept mainland authority.

 

So the PRC would destroy something to possess it?

(like Jeffrey Dahmer?)

 

We will react like a dumb puppy would just like we have with everything else. Johnny Depp summed it up rather nicely in a recent interview:

"America is dumb, it's like a dumb puppy that has big teeth that can bite and hurt you, aggressive"

 

I'm sorry.

I was chasing a ball.

What did you say?

 

Johhny Depp...so what? I'm sick of political quotes from actors, esp ones who dropped out of school at 15.

 

Friendly Fan, I have a lot of respect for you for your posts on Vietnam war, but your opinion on Taiwan is a carbon copy of that of the most extreme TIers (Taiwan Independence). At most 10% of Taiwanese (and maybe 50% of Taiwanese American) has the point of view that you have.

I really didn’t want to participate in this debate, but as an American, I do object to giving people a distorted viewpoint so average American would form a wrong conclusion.

The following is a link to an opinion poll on the up-coming Taiwanese Presidential election. It is TODAY’s story.

http://news.chinatimes.com/Chinatim...content/0,3546,110502+112003090300029,00.html

S. Fujian descendent (78% of population): 38% will elect the pro-Unification candidate vs. 34% will elect the pro-Independent candidate
Hakka (12% of population): 47% will elect the pro-Unification candidate vs. 27% for the pro-Independence candidate
Descendent from other provinces (10%): 78% will elect the pro-Unification candidate vs. 12% will elect the pro-Independence candidate.

I will be more than willing to answer any questions or comments, if time allows.

 

Last time I checked they are still in charge of territory claimed by the PRC. And as I pointed out, the Communists have no more legitimate claim to 'China' based on 'ancestral heritage,' which is the argument being advanced, than the Nationalists do. If that. If we are going to talk about actually legitimacy of government, the PRC has little to stand on in comparison to Taiwan's version of democracy.

And I think its important to note that many Taiwanese don't support the independence party because they are convinced the PRC will attack if they openly declare independence.

Personally I think (as someone else said earlier) that it would just be a big beat down when the 7th Fleet entered the fray and womped the PLA and their air force/naval components. We saw the whole thing pretty clearly when the PRC started rattling sabers and then stepped back when the 7th Fleet came sailing into the Taiwan Strait. The most likely outcome however, is that nothing will happen for a long time and economic integration will make all this smack talk irrelevant.

 

Okay...I'll try not to post things your sick of.

 

Thank you.

 

it's entirely possible that you're right and I'm wrong

I didn't read the article linked because I don't like to let anything download from the net onto my system unless I know ahead of time what I'm downloading and who I'm downloading from.

But I'll read it if you copy it.

As for your further comments, I'm listening. If I'm in error, let's fix it now. My perception has always been that 75% oppose reunification.

 

sorry to wade in here with a negative post. but i just wanted to point out a couple of nuances here:

1) the Chinatimes is owned by a pro-China business group. (versus the pro-Taiwan Liberty Times for example). It's called "China Times" for crying out loud...

2) In the poll, the KMT (38%) is pro-Status Quo, with negotiations. They are the remnants of Chiang's party, turned by Lee Tenghui (a widely perceived independence advocate) into a Taiwanese-based party, but still draws many of its votes from the recent Chinese emigrants (post-1945) and mainland businessmen, hence its centrist, though China-friendly policies. But to say they are pro-unification is a GROSS MISREPRESENTATION. They support the One China policy, but that is still the REPUBLIC OF CHINA.

The DPP (35%) represents the die-hard independence advocates. They want nothing to do with China, no negotiations, minimised economic dependence, and a strong Taiwanese identity, if not outright independence.

So really, you need to replace "Pro-Unification" with "China-Friendly" or "Negotiation-Friendly" in your poll description. There is NO market at all for unificiation in Taiwan. The true pro-unification party (the "New Party") received only ONE seat in the last legislative elections (out of hundreds of seats) and was effectively voted out of existence...

Really historical polls show that "Status Quo" remains the most popular choice among voters, and so ALL the major parties have promised this. The only difference is that "status quo" for the KMT means that we're talking with China but saying the same things we've been saying for 50 years, while "status quo" for the DPP means that we're talking with China but only about economics, while maintaining our de facto independence.

Otherwise, many thanks for providing good numbers for the debate! But the number that will be most telling will be the actual elections next year... The KMT was also widely projected to win last time... They came DEAD LAST, in a field of three candidates too...

 

aw, come on! i'm not anti-jewish. i just don't share their hate. that's all.

they've made it a policy that if you don't hate all former nazis, even saintly men like Kurt Waldheim, you're "anti-jewish".
(by "they", i mean the ones who questioned me. no stereotypes intended. gosh, gotta be careful with this now...)

i simply disagree.

most chinese have a thing against the Japanese too and, to a lesser extent, against the Americans and Europeans too. historical and political grudges most taiwanese simply don't share.

that is somewhat relevant to this discussion too, as a huge cultural difference between china and taiwan.

most older taiwanese LOVE japan. they speak and read japanese. they sing japanese songs. they eat japanese food and live in japanese-style houses. and most of all they respect that culture and love traveling there.

most older chinese (including post-1945 mainland immigrants in taiwan) HATE japan. they constantly perceive "attempts by japan to resurrect its empire" or "insidious rewriting of history books" or "insensitive denial of war-time responsibilities" or "shameless refusal to denounce all former imperial japanese army soldiers", even dead ones... LOL!!

similarly for the West and America. taiwanese people love the U.S. they perceive it for what it is, a force for peace and prosperity in the Pacific Rim. american national self-interest aside (that exists for any state), it is still probably the best choice among all the potential hegemons. they freed us from the japanese, who though we did not hate very much to begin with, treated us like secondary citizens. and for that we are thankful. but America eventually left us with Chiang, arguably as bad as the Japanese, and then ditched Taiwan altogether in 1979. but then again, they were among the world's last to do so, and they are the ONLY country who still stands up for us against mighty China. so for that, we are again thankful. in other words, taiwanese people simply don't share that hate.

On the other hand, many chinese i know constantly growl at "American imperialism/hegemony in the Pacific Rim". they constantly perceive attempts by the West to "keep China down". they fume whenever they enter the "Oriental" section of the major Western museums...

glad i'm not them. gotta suck to have to carry around all that frustration and hate!


taiwan and china. two different histories. two different cultures. two different worldviews. two different peoples. and whether the chinese believes it or not (reminds me of the emperor and his new clothes), we're two different nations.

man... history is history. we learn what we can from it (things like compassion, tolerance, and understanding come to mind). but the most important thing everyone needs to learn is to forgive and forget.

 

To Lil,

“1) the Chinatimes is owned by a pro-China business group. (versus the pro-Taiwan Liberty Times for example). It's called "China Times" for crying out loud...”

China Times has the largest viewership in Taiwan. I believe Liberty Time is the second largest publication in terms of viewerships. But you can pick up a copy of Liberty Time in most supermarkets free of charge. The third largest publication is United Daily. Traditionally, it is viewed as United Daily as pro-Unification, Liberty Times is viewed as pro-Independence, and China Times as central. By the way, all three publications are “pro-Taiwan” since their viewerships are all Taiwanese.

”2) In the poll, the KMT (38%) is pro-Status Quo, with negotiations. They are the remnants of Chiang's party, turned by Lee Tenghui (a widely perceived independence advocate) into a Taiwanese-based party, but still draws many of its votes from the recent Chinese emigrants (post-1945) and mainland businessmen, hence its centrist, though China-friendly policies. But to say they are pro-unification is a GROSS MISREPRESENTATION. They support the One China policy, but that is still the REPUBLIC OF CHINA. “

The One China policy means they strive for a future one China. You got to have unification before you have only one China. It is really not that complicated. So yes, they are pro-Unification.

”The DPP (35%) represents the die-hard independence advocates. They want nothing to do with China, no negotiations, minimised economic dependence, and a strong Taiwanese identity, if not outright independence.”

DPP is no longer a party representing the die-hard independence advocates (though they used to). Taiwan Union party headed by the former KMT head Lee TengHui has now take over that position that DPP vacated.

For proof:
http://news.chinatimes.com/Chinatim...ex/0,3687,920903031+92090331+0+211812,00.html

Quick Translation: On 9/6/2003, there will be a big demonstration (plans to be the biggest in recent years) for the benefit of Taiwan Independence. But the Taiwan president (also DPP chairman) make sure he will not be there to receive the demonstration leaders’ grievance.

By the way, DPP is pro-Independence. But to say they are die-hard independence advocates, they won’t get 15% of votes.



”So really, you need to replace "Pro-Unification" with "China-Friendly" or "Negotiation-Friendly" in your poll description. There is NO market at all for unificiation in Taiwan. The true pro-unification party (the "New Party") received only ONE seat in the last legislative elections (out of hundreds of seats) and was effectively voted out of existence... “

That is just word plays since People’s First Party had replaced the New Party and PFP’s chairman received 37% of votes in the last general election.

”Really historical polls show that "Status Quo" remains the most popular choice among voters, and so ALL the major parties have promised this. The only difference is that "status quo" for the KMT means that we're talking with China but saying the same things we've been saying for 50 years, while "status quo" for the DPP means that we're talking with China but only about economics, while maintaining our de facto independence.”

Bingo, I agree with everything said here.

”Otherwise, many thanks for providing good numbers for the debate! But the number that will be most telling will be the actual elections next year... The KMT was also widely projected to win last time... They came DEAD LAST, in a field of three candidates too...”

Actually, you were wrong. KMT was projected to be number 3 by most polls (and definitely all the polls done by China Times), and yes, they finished number 3.

 

that's the sanest thing you've ever written


listen, on Israel, Osama, et al, you might want to read your posts more carefully, because there are ways to argue your points that are not nearly so inflammatory. and frankly, like Cohen pointed out with some of your quotes, you said some ill isht there.

 

I appreciate you guys collective efforts, but help old grandpaw out with a summary. What is the verdict?

How many Taiwanese who call Taiwan home and are voting adults favor reunification with Chinese authority over Taiwan?

 

great post by the way.

 

Friendly Fan,

“How many Taiwanese who call Taiwan home and are voting adults favor reunification with Chinese authority over Taiwan?”

Wow, really like to get to the point? I like your style.

If you add a word “current” so it becomes “current Chinese authority”, the answer will probably be less than 10%.

But if you modify the wording from “Chinese authority” to “China”, add a word “in the future”, my guess is more than 50%.

But it is only my guess becuse the poll in Taiwan fluctuate from time to time (just like that in the US).

 

money will cure China's ills


this is a country that has to embrace capitalism and reinvent itself once again.


Let me talk of my love for China, too.

I am very, very empathetic with China. Seventy five years ago, it was a country of feudal lords and concubines. If you're never seen RED LANTERN, get it and watch it. One of the best glimpses of pre-revolution life, and while the roaring twenties took place here.

75 years ago or so, China got on a rocket ship that has tried to bring it 500 years in only 75. It's a long haul, and there's a long way to go.

China felt a terrible blow to its face when western powers first began using gunboat diplomacy over 150 years ago, for, of all things, MAKING China accept OUR opium trade to their citizens. Yeah, the West was Pablo Escobar back then.

China has felt that it must endure indignity at the hands of the west for almost 200 years, and that's sort of true if not literally so. But China is split between it's desire to remain as it has been culturely and where it wants to go economically.

China will come out of this alright. Maybe Taiwan gets back in. Stranger things have happened, and Asians think in centuries like we think in decades.

 

it's funny you ask! cuz there's actually a government department that does specifically this: taking polls on taiwan-china opinions once a year!!!

it's called the mainland affairs council (MAC), and to my knowledge, its statistics and methods are generally perceived to be the most accurate and unbiased by academics.

http://www.mac.gov.tw/english/index1-e.htm

i would like to specifically direct you to:
http://www.mac.gov.tw/english/english/foreign/index.htm#2

you can look at #14 and #15 there. again, the numbers show an overwhelming support for status quo, with pro-independence people edging out pro-unification people by a growing margin over time.

enjoy!