Didn't I say stop the madness? THE PEOPLE DIED BECAUSE IT WAS UNUSUALLY HOT AND THEY DID NOT HAVE AIR CONDITION BECAUSE IT IS NOT NORMALLY AS HOT. Whether their family members should/could have taken better care of them is unrelated to how "socialist" the country is. CASE CLOSED.
I wouldn't think so. If I were to take a guess at it, I would bet that the fragmentation I see in France is the result of a backlash against the historical dominance of Christianity, manifesting itself in a rejection of traditional ideals, escalating even to the point of self-injury just to manifest the spite. I think French socialism benefits from the same trend but is nothing more than a fellow passenger. But, I can't really bring much evidence to bear on all this and it is certainly beyond the scope of this thread other than to just explain why it is I don't buy the socialism-is-to-blame rhetoric. And, the 35-hour criticism is just rhetoric leveled by one party against another. It isn't the People doing the complaining, it is the UMP coalition.
Are you sure? I thought it was due to capitalism. Chicago = capitalist city Chicago = heat wave deaths capitalist city = heat wave deaths Wow, that was easy!
what were the numbers on the people dying in Chicago?? again, I'm not going so far as saying we can point the finger at socialism particularly...but we're talking deaths in the thousands in France, right??? i'm guessing it didn't hit that level in Chicago...for a myriad of reasons.
Good grief Mr. Clutch. You must be the reincarnation of Joe McCarthy. You do have labour laws in the US, right? Do conservatives support any of these labour laws? I’m guessing they support at lest a few. Does this make your conservatives socialists? What makes one labour law socialist and another not socialist for you? You need to be a lot more discerning about your use of the term socialist. I think that if you look at Quebec you'll see a lot of the same things going on (backlash against the church etc.) so I would say that you're right on the mark. I don't see the connection so socialism though. In fact, I don't even think I know what Mr. Clutch has in his head when he says the word socialism.
Actually, I just posted something from another site. I got in in my head from the original author. So it's not my fault.
again, I'm not going so far as saying we can point the finger at socialism particularly...but we're talking deaths in the thousands in France, right??? i'm guessing it didn't hit that level in Chicago...for a myriad of reasons. A part of that is the population of France is a bit higher than the population of Chicago. According to GreenVegan, 465 people died in the Chicago 1995 heatwave. Population of Chicago: about 2.8 million Population of France: about 61 million Extrapolate the Chicago problem to 61 million people, and you have 10130 deaths. Granted, I don't know how much of France has this heatwave problem and how much of the US suffered the Chicago problem.
You know Major, I was going to do that earlier in this thread but for some reason, I kept thinking the population of Paris so without even looking it up I thought that would not make the point. I forgot we were talking about the whole country. That post should be sufficient enough to end this thread.
Next week: Major is going to make a convincing case that the earth revolves around the sun and not vice versa. Look out max!
he could do it, too. he's among my very favorite posters here. i love people who are smarter than i am, but who don't feel it necessary to tell me that all the time!
That's a tough act to follow, but I'd also point out the French heat wave has been longer and hotter than Chicago's. And, air conditioning is less prevalent in France than in Chicago.
rimbaud, the quote was out of context... but let's act like it is not; that way we can still claim intellectual superiority. it's from such an artsy Sundance movie that no one on this site has seen it anyway. Maybe when I get a chance, I'll have my friend Bob send you a summary of that year's movies (1991).
heb, don't you know that Sundance is not cool? That is too mainstream. The real art is being produced out of the legendary underground film mecca Quezon City. Regardless...
The bold portion below is my new favorite quote.... http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAO03CQVJD.html Will France Scrap Christmas? Government Mulls Abolishing a Holiday to Finance Elderly Care By John Leicester Associated Press Writer Published: Aug 27, 2003 PARIS (AP) - France, a country where leisure time is sacrosanct, is mulling a radical plan for financing health care after a heat wave estimated to have killed thousands: Make people work on a national holiday. The idea, which the government floated Wednesday, immediately split opinion and provoked one main question - which of France's 11 national holidays should go? Labor Day, perhaps, or a religious festival? At least two ministers said Christmas should not be touched. Ever wary of angering France's powerful unions, the government insisted it still hadn't made a decision. But even considering the idea shows how seriously the government is taking calls to improve care for the elderly, who made up most of the victims from the record temperatures that baked Europe this month. Hamlaoui Mekachera, secretary of state for war veterans, told The Associated Press that if the plan is adopted, social taxes from the extra workday could help finance elderly care. But most of all, abolishing a holiday would signal that France is ready to make sacrifices to better care for the vulnerable, he said. "It's a very important, very strong symbol," Mekachera said in an interview. "The gesture of solidarity is more important than the financial gesture ... so that we never witness again what we saw." Thousands died in the heat, the government has estimated, many of them elderly and living alone. The deaths focused attention on France's struggle to care for an aging population and prompted a storm of criticism that the center-right government reacted too slowly. Secretary of State for the Elderly Hubert Falco noted that Germany has made people work the Day of Penance and Prayer in November to finance care for the aged since 1995. "It's one of the possibilities, among many others," Falco said after a Cabinet meeting. "It would be, as is the case in Germany, a holiday that would be worked to the advantage of national solidarity." At first blush, the idea seemed fraught with risk. Many French, long connoisseurs of fine living, appreciate the extra time off granted by a law passed by the previous Socialist government that restricted the working week for many to 35 hours. There are also religious and historical sensibilities. Transport Secretary Dominique Bussereau said he opposed abolishing a May 8 holiday that celebrates the end of World War II in Europe, or Christmas, or Armistice Day on Nov. 11, when fighting stopped in World War I. "Definitely not May 8, because it left quite a few memories; not December 25 because I want Christmas presents," he said. On the political left, there was outrage. "There's no question of touching holidays," thundered Communist lawmaker Alain Bocquet. "There's no question of erasing May 8 and the memory of victory over Nazi barbarity and fascism!" Jean-Claude Mailly, a leader of the Workers' Force trade union, said a wealthy country like France should not have to make workers labor longer to finance health care. The union, he warned, would not take kindly to the abolition of the May 1 Labor Day holiday. "It's enforced charity, totally unacceptable," he said in an interview. But Ernest-Antoine Seilliere, president of MEDEF, France's leading business federation, said one less holiday would be "fantastic." "The idea that we can solve problems by working more is a big first for our country," he said on Europe-1 radio. "We all know that the time has passed for the illusion that we can be more united and make the French system function, eyeing leisure time all the while." AP-ES-08-27-03 1514EDT
