There has been alot of talk around the BBS about putting our current player's at different positions, whether it be in the lineup or rotation in order to make a trade possible or aquire certain FAs. I thought it would be neat to have a civil discussion on where the current players on our roster fit and debate whether or not they can play more than their home position. Here is how I see it: Yao - Center is the only option IMO. Yao just doesn't have the quickness to play anything other than the 5 and I can't think of a PF in this league who I would be comfortable with him guarding out away from the basket. This team needs him around the basket as much as possible. Obviously, he should be starting. Eggie - PF has to be considered his best position, which is not saying much. I can see why some might think he can be a 3, but watching other PFs blow by him out in the high post makes me cringe when thinking about him guarding a 3. His footwork is just terrible and he won't be able to play for the block like he is used to. On O, I just don't think hes a good enough shooter or ball handler to justify putting him at the SF spot. Furthermore, pulling him out on the wing takes away his greatest skill right now, his shot blocking. I do think Eggie can get away with spot mins at the 5, in a crunch, against some of the thinner centers like Lo Wright or LaFrentz. But I see no need for anything more than limited mins there when Yao and Cato are healthy. I think there is hope for EG. Others will disagree with me, but I saw EG display a couple of nice moves in the post. If he can ever develop a finish touch on his shot, he will end up close to being the player we want and need him to be. Taylor - No way he can be a 3 (despite what ESPN thinks) and hes just too small and soft on D and the boards to be a 5. PF is where its at for him. As far as starting, I am not totally sure. If he starts, then we have no low post threat coming off the bench to keep the defenses from smothering Pike and Rice. Plus, Cato's tough D and rebounding can help offset his weaknesses. I think playing Yao and Taylor together creates a bit of a rebounding disadvantage for us, unless Yao comes in as reformed board man. Mobley - Should he start or be a 6th man supreme? Mobley has always accepted the role that has been given to him and played well. Mobley and Steve together is almost overkill as their games both rely on breaking down their defenders. They are so similar that I think both suffer from the other's indiscretions (overkill) as far as fan backlash. We see them both make the same mistakes. I wouldn't mind having Mobes off the bench, but IMO, this leaves us without any type of decent backcourt defender in the starting 5, assuming Pike takes his place. I leave him in the starting lineup for now. I think he deserves to stay there. Francis - There has been a ton of debate about moving him to the 2. Count me as a part of the "leave Steve at the 1" crowd. Steve needs the ball in his hands to be effective. Whether that is achieved by him bringing it up, or a PG giving it to him to initiate the offense, is a moot point. Steve is not a catch and shoot guy (like Iverson) and he will struggle against bigger 2s since we don't currently have a 1 who can switch over. I think the comparisons to the Iverson switch are grossly misguided and I see Steve as an above average SG at best. This is Steve's make or break year IMO. If he doesn't "get it" under JVG, then we need to shop him. Francis has had his chances and has yet to get past his TO problems. Yo Adrian - I see him as the starting 3. Don't see alot of time for him at the 2, with Pike and Mobes playing there (although, like JVG said, he doesn't differentiate between the two positions). I forsee alot of 3 guard lineups with Pike, Francis and Mobley. Although I think he will start, I don't see AG playing more than 20-25 mins a game. Pike - True 2. If he was an inch or so taller, might be able to get by as a 3. Again, this is why I think well see alot of 3 guard lineups. JVG has talked about Pike having a bigger role than he has had in the past with the Clippers. IMO, this means 20 mins or so. The days of Mobley playing 40+ are probably over and I am guessing he will get knocked down to 35 and possibly getting some mins at the 1 if Moo continues to suck. Cato - For the life of me, I can't understand why people think he can get away with playing the 4 alongside Yao. Playing them together, means you pretty much have to go with Yao in the high post as he would be much more effective with his range and passing. Cato is dead weight at the 4 as he has no inkling of offense out there. Furthermore, putting him out there takes away his offense rebounding. Same theory on D. I want him down on the blocks on D. He does not have the footwork or discipline to guard a 4 out high. Lets not forget he is 270 lbs. Not alot of PFs around with that kind of size. Hawkins - Can obviously play both the 2 and 3. I would love to see if someone can teach him some handles and possibly see if he can fake it at the 1 for a few mins (if Moo continues to sink). Unfortunately, with Pike/AG/Mobes/Francis, I see Hawk relegated to 11th and 12th man mop up duty barring injury. Rice - Bench player. 10-15 mins if he is on with his shot and thats about it. I can forsee JVG possibly spot starting him if the offense is struggling though. I think he will be a fringe rotation player most of the year (in and out). Boki - Poor poor Boki. Tough summer league. Where will he get his mins? Boki is a 3 and no anything else. AG and Pike are in the 8-9 man rotation unless they are injured. Lets be realistic, unless Boki proves in camp that he is a better option than Rice is, shooting wise, then I see him keeping Hawk company at the end of the bench for most of the season, especially when considering JVG theory about young players earning minutes. Boki's best hope is for Rice to go down or get traded and for AG to become a serious liability on offense to the point where JVG gives him a shot and being a catalyst on O. Badiane - Would be nice to have as 12th man, but why let him sit on the bench for most of the season when he can play in real game competition overseas??? The BBS seems split down the middle in the "12th man v. playing overseas" debate. I just don't see a player benefiting by playing 5-10 mins 2 or 3 times a month. Id rather him get real game experience, even if its not against NBA competition. What do you guys think?
Codell, what do you mean by the 4 being "put out there." So, the 5 is closest to the basket. The 4 is 5' further out. The 4 is 5' further out from that ??? I agree with JVG. Prototype positioning like that is unnecessary. For instance, a 2-3 zone makes both the SF and PF play the same defensive position. There is no 3 or 4. If the opponents want to put their 3 on your 4 or vice versa, they can do so if you are playing zone, no matter who you call your 3 or 4. So, there is every reason to believe that Eddie and Mo can play together in a zone. If Kenny Thomas and Keith Van Horn can play together, Mo can play the 3 on offense and play zone on defense. Likewise, Eddie can still remain in good rebounding and shotblocking position. As for Cato and Yao playing together, the holy grail with Yao, imo, is putting him in the high post like Duncan often does. Until Yao can play at the free throw line, then I agree that playing them together would make us a grind it out defensive team...which still isn't too bad for 10mpg or so. It's better than watching Eddie guarding Duncan or Garnett...that's for sure. At least Cato will take away their easy low post positioning.
sigh So, the 5 is closest to the basket. The 4 is 5' further out. The 3 is 5' further out from that??
HP, Honestly, I didn't think alot about zones when writing my post. However, last time he coached, zones were illegal. Now, I am not saying that JVG won't use them or that he doesn't know how to use them. I just see us playing a good bit of man to man and my theories were based on such. Personally, I rarely saw us play a zone last year where EG and SF weren't losing their man or showing any sort of recovery instincts. However, that is all about discipline and focus and can be corrected more easily than trying to teach them man to man fundamentals and footwork. I am sure JVG will emphasize this in camp (zone techniques). In the end, I can digress and say that most of my points our moot when playing zone. For some reason, I am just too grizzled and forget zones for some reason. BTW, re: 5' further out, etc. I am not naive to the point where I relate positions with spacing and whatnot. However, i know that when Yao is on the low block, then its likely that the 4 will be trying to take his man out away from the basket as not to make a Yao double team/front so easy (zone obviously changes this).
Sorry off topic, but i was reading through old posts. And boy, you get some real arrogant , i know it all punks on these boards. HAHA , for example look at this guy, his username is NEWYORKER - made an ass out of himself haha. He posted this about 4 games into Yao's career when he was averaging around 2 pts , 2boards, and he like many others were already writing Yao off as a bust. I especially liked the part where he quoted another guy saying Yao making the allstar team and averaging 13 and 8 as "RIDICULOUS", and "MAKING AN ASS OUT OF THEMSELVES" -------------------------------- NewYorker Member Posts: 319 Joined: Sep 2002 Member: #7158 11-07-2002 10:29 AM Yao is slow and weak, that's why he looks so bad. I never said his career is made or not, he's just a project, and projects don't deserve more PT, they deserve less. His Basketball IQ is less then other rookies from foreign countries. His ability to post up is near 0. He hardly blocks shots for someone his height. He gets few rebounds. He defends by fouling his opponents. Yet you claim he is stong and quick? Get a grip on reality. I love how your only fire is to attack that I dumped Houston and moved to another city. That obviously really hurts your feelings. At least Knicks fans have realistic views of their players and aren't homers. They know their team sucks, and they know which players have been overhyped and don't go on making an ass out of themselves by making ridiculous claims like "Yao Ming will make the All-Star team" or will average "13pt, 8 reb" this season. What knowledge is that based on? Homer Knowledge. As in Homer Simpson Knowledge. Deal with reality. Yao right now sucks. He's a long term project. There's a good chance he will fade away or get injured, that's a reality, and if that happens, it will probably end Carroll Dawson's Career as it should. Your whiny personal attacks only serve as a disservice to this BBS and the people on here who actually wish to discuss basketball. Stick to the argument buddy, or shut up.
When Duncan was not in the high post, he would start in the low post with Robinson/Rose in the high post. The spacing was such that really the only person who could double is Robinson/Rose's man. The moment they move Robinson/Rose dive and Duncan gives them a high pass above their head. That is a very hard play to stop...between 4-5 and 5-4. We also did that to beat the Lakers when Maurice had the awesome game and Yao dove from the free throw line a couple of time. imo, there is no reason to believe Yao can't be low block with even Cato opposite high post or opposite low post. If they man moves, Cato would go straight to the hole for a high pass, just like he does when his man leaves to cover Francis. imo, the *only* problem with playing Cato and Yao together in short stretches is that the other three guys must be able to shoot. I hate fielding 2 poor offensive players at the same time. I can tolerate it only in the rest minutes of the 2nd Q and end of 3rd, when the other team often has to field two poor shooters/scorers.
I think this discussion is finally interesting with a new coach. It had been that everyone always wanted to move everyone down a peg to ensure greater than average height at every position (Cato as a power forward, Griffin as a small forward, Posey as a shooting guard, etc.). And, it was always so pointless because Rudy T would never compromise speed and handling for height. In fact, he always went the opposite direction, playing guys in positions they were too small for to take advantage of their speed and shooting (Taylor at center, Mobley at small forward, etc.). With Van Gundy, what will the philosophy be? Will he value size or speed? It'll be interesting to see what he does. Here's my short-form by-position answer. Yao and Cato are centers; I think you can put Yao at PF alongside Cato for short stretches but, if we did, I'd see it as an indication that our PF position is really hurting. I can see Griffin playing the 4, ideally, or the 5 against second-string. Mo Taylor is a 4. I can see him swinging to add shooting if his defensive assignment isn't an offensive threat. HP point about the zone is well-taken. I wouldn't do it without a zone though. I'm certain Rice will be our starter at small forward. He could probably play some PF, but I don't think we'll need him to. Adrian Griffin can probably swing easily between the 2 and 3; he's a defensive specialist, so I'm not worried about him being outmuscled or outrun. Nachbar needs to worry about seeing the court at all before thinking about trying other positions. He won't be taking minutes from Mobley, so he'd better work on Rice and AGriffin. Pike can probably play the 3 but is mostly a 2. I think he can play the 3 because, again, he's a specialist; he'll get beat by 2 and 3s so his defense won't keep him from switching spots. He's on the floor for his shooting. Mobley is just a SG. For him to see time at the 3, Moochie will have to vastly outplay our small forwards. Francis likely will see the same routine that he had in the past, switching to the 2 for Moochie. Moochie can't switch positions. He's a 1.
Weird. I agree with pretty much that whole post. Steve should stay at the point. I think with a more disciplined offensive scheme, he can be a great point guard. Bad example, but if you watched the All Star game, he was playing like a true point guard. I know he's got it in him. Hopefully JVG can bring it out. No way he can guard any of the 6'10 shooting guards. Cat's offense would be nice off the bench, but I don't like Pike starting in his place. Cat is bigger, stronger and more athletic thus, he should start. His D is underrated. I think AG should start because of his defense. The SF spot should be handled like Rudy used to handle the PG spot during the championship years. Start AG, then let whoever gets hot finish ala Kenny and Sam. EG should start at the 4 only because of his shot blocking ability. Then bring in Mo when EG and Yao are on the bench and make him your #1 low post option. He took over some games towards the end of last season. Plus, he'll be playing against the other team's backup. Yao and Cato should always be at center. Personally, I think we have a great 1-2 punch with these two. Don't fix what ain't broken.
HP, I see your point on the Duncan/Rose/Robinson, 5-4, 4-5 theory. The only thing I would really counteract with is that Cato is a freight train and as often as he would get uncontest dunks on that player, he could just as easily rack up offensive fouls if his man is able to recover and slide over before he leaves his feet. Robinson and Rose are much more nimble than Cato. Heck, even Rasho is probably more nimble. Point being is, seeing Cato charge in from the high post to receive that pass makes me cringe. Its not like he can stop on a dime or has the bball IQ like a Robinson to make a decision if his man happens to recover. Not trying to dismiss the 5-4,4-5 dive play, just saying that Cato is not who I would forsee being effective like a Robinson/Rose would be. Also, I wasn't insinuating that Yao/Mo couldn't be effective on O. My vantage point was more from a rebounding perspective and a defensive perspective (zone excluded). To reiterate, I like a Mo/Cato tandem off the bench because they help offset each other's weaknesses. Granted, EG doesn't really offset anyone's weaknesses but anyway ....................... Short strecthes. Thats the key then right??? I can be honest and tell you that I have no problem if another team is killing is with penetration/offensive rebounding/junk layups and can't counteract Cato at the 4 with a capable mid range shooter at the 4. Again, my whole premise in denoucing the Cato/Yao combo is based on us, more often that not facing a multi-faceted 4, who plays close to 40 mins (specifically in our own division). I mean, if I am SA and I see Yao and Cato on the court together, I have Duncan in and play Rasho/Rose low and let Tim abuse Cato out high.
Exactly! JVG will have to be a demanding Coach and insist that he is is the one making the decissions and play calling. Steve will respond to a strong Coach and show us that he can be the player we all think he can be. In conrast to this I am expecting Moochie to be the most improved player on the Rox Team. He will feel confident to show his PG skills, especially assists, under the leadership of JVG.
Why can't Yao play in the high post? I thought that would allow him to use his shooting touch and passing ability on cuts. Put Cato in the low post. On defense, pack it in, or run a 2-3. If the opposing pf wants to back up and shoot jumpers, ok. We're in better rebounding position. They have probably a 45% chance of connecting on that jumper, vs. probably a 55% chance on a post-up, where they can get 2 and a foul, or hit their own put-back. Duncan, Garnett, Webber, Nowitzki and Wallace are going to get their share; at least take them out of rebounding position. I'm guessing we're going to double those guys as soon as the pass hits and leave the centers, anyway. Just have to make sure the ball goes out and not sideways to the open Rasho, Kandi, Miller, La Frentz or Davis. I think the opposing pfs are going to have a hard time getting that pass off with Yao and Cato smothering them. If it goes out to guard and then back to the Center there's time to slide over and seal. topic # 2 - why can't A. Griffin start at the 2? Then Mobely can come off the bench and score, and Griffin can slide to 3 when Rice sits down. Pike and Boki can come in for spot minutes and special assignments.
Pasox, Its not that I dont think or want Yao playing in the high post. I look forward to seeing him there this year with Mo/Griff down on the blocks. The point was, is why would you do that?? Mo and Griff (to a much lesser extent) are threats to drop in jumpers, Cato isn't. Its about switching back and forth. Cato is low post and is an odd fit at high post, unless he is diving like HP had stated. I am trying to make our offense efficient to where players can change positions on various offenses and defensive sets, but not to the point to where they can be grossly exploited by the other team by isolating them. Also, unlike SF/PF, in a 2-3 zone, its not as simple as packing it in and letting Cato or Yao fend for themselves out on the wing. Dirk/Jamison/Duncan will rain jumpers and bank shots in all day long. So I don't buy your percentages because never want to pack it in when someone like Dirk or Duncan is on the floor. Furthermore, with regards to "smothering", is that really what you want a slow footed big man to do??? I mean, isn't that just asking for your man to blow by you or have to foul him to stop him??? If Yao or Cato did have to play out on perimeter, my guess is that they are gonig to have to give their man some space. That was one of my original points which I really didn't state. IMO, Cato or Yao away from the basket trying to play tight D on an outside threat that can beat them off the dribble is asking for foul trouble. Last, "sliding over and sealing" is asking Cato and Yao to both do something that they are not going to be efficient at. Both lack the lateral quickness and recovery skills. They are lane cloggers and shot blockers, not lateral defenders like you want them to be. In the end, as stated before, as long as the opposition has a 4 and 5 on the court that isn't a legit outside threat, then I can see Cato getting spot mins. But never for a long stretch or during crunch time.
Francis can play at the 1 and 2. Since we have qualified backups now at the 2 and 3 (but not a good starting small forward), Francis will mainly play as our point guard. I think...about 38 minutes. I hope he doesn't play more than 40 minutes this year averaged. Mobley can play shooting guard mainly...I like him as our starting shooting guard. Unless you want to put Rice or Piatkowski in to try to make 3's or get an early lead or let opposing shooting guards own us...Mobley can also play small forward. I wouldn't mind having him play point guard sometimes. He kinda is a point guard anyways. Adrian is a 3...kinda slow...can't shoot...just a defender. He can also play at the 2. He is 6-5...so average height. Eddie has been playing at the 4. But I think he can be like Rasheed Wallace. He can play at the 3 or 4. It depends on matchups and how we want to use him and his height. He could play at the 5 too in desperation. He just needs to get stronger and improve his shooting! And don't do drugs! Yao is a 5. He is wwwwwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaay too slow to play anything else. But he does have the passing ability to be a point center. Moochie shouldn't be playing! But he is a 1 mainly. Piatkowksi can play at the 2 or 3. I guess he will play each position half half of the time. Rice is a 3 but can play at the 2. Nachbar is a 3 but can play at the 2 and maybe at the 4. Taylor is a 4...he could play at the 3 but I like him as our backup 4. Cato is a 5 but he should play with Yao together when we have a serious height advantage. Our players aren't the greatest individual defenders. But we have 3 very good shotblockers on our team...zone defense!
I honestly see Mobley being traded for a taller player of his capablities to really fit the three. I think after the mid season Pike will be put as a starting two. Mobley will then be shoped for a player who has his ability to jack shots but tall enough to play the three. I really wonder what they will do with moochie though. I hope he gets traded.
have you guys watched the games from last year when Rudy played the 2-3 when Kenny was off and Eggie was on, Eggie really had no idea how to play a zone, JVG has a lot of work to do. Just like HeyP i think if they play zone then both Eggie and Mot could play together KVH/Kenny style, but man Egggie better get up to speed with the zone especially when weakside, in the game @ Miami he was standing weakside worrying about the weakside corner when miami player were consistently cutting down the middle untouched for lay-ups.
