this is way different from OJ so far. i dont think a lot of people see kobe as guilty yet. i sure dont. there will be no way to tell until the trial gets started.
What I said does not prove your point, HillBoy. Let's re-visit your statement: It doesn't matter that Kobe has absolutely nothing to do with this - it will still be linked to him indirectly somehow by the media and others. (Pat 1) Kobe will not get the benefit of the doubt no matter what nor should he expect fairness because that's not the way the system works. (Part 2) Part 1-- I concur so that argument is moot. Part 2 -- My response was: Agree with your initial premise, but not with your conclusion. However, the seeds that Law Team Kobe and willing followers planted early are now growing wild and without control. I predict the harvest shall yield bitter fruit for all. Note that I said "Law Team Kobe and willing followers" (i.e., the Los Angeles radio stations, fixers and internet posters who started slandering the chief witness from Day One) planted the seeds in the hearts and minds of insane and borderline insane people. They didn't put the Iowa idiot up to making death threats. I am merely concluding that their tactics stimulated the irrationalities of the great unwashed. However, "getting the benefit of the doubt (or not)" has nothing to do with my response. You are a computer engineer and yet you are abandoning logic to make such a leap. I merely said I believe that they will -- fairly or unfairly -- pay the consequences for their early tactics.
It wouldn't surprise me if the people who broke into her house will now be called as witnesses to something they saw in the house while they were rummaging around. That is the insanity of a trial like this.
Tactics? What tactics? By tactics you must mean that his lawyers have publicly stated that the charges against their client are without foundation or merit and that they intend to vigorously defend their client in court. Exactly what would you have them say, "he's guilty but we're going to try our best to get him off"? If it were me, I'd WANT them to vigorously defend me - after all, that's what I'm paying them those huge fees for. Not once have I seen anything where Kobe or his legal team have attacked the alleged victim at all - they are simply not that stupid. They know that such tactics will backfire and cause their client irrepairable harm. Furthermore, last time I looked, his lawyers were officers of the court and for them to engage outside parties in such behavior would be grounds for disbarrment. Yet, somehow, you have come to feel that Kobe should bear ultimate responsibility for the actions of others especially if they are made in his behalf. In my book, that is an unfair statement for anyone to make but that's the way it has always been with this society's attitudes toward the black male. If one black male does something wrong, then all black males get tarred with the same brush. That's why nothing surprises me in cases like this anymore because I know that the first thing out the window will be fairness and objectivity. I need to further clarify my position here. I contend that in cases such as this one where race, wealth & sex all collide, the perception becomes the reality. In this country, the perception of the black male has changed little over the years since I grew up in Houston. For many white people, the fearsome subhuman image of the black male is their truth. That's one reason why Eagle County is going after Kobe with everything they've got - the criminal justice system is designed to come down and come down hard on any black male who is accused of wrongdoing. So, as a result, I don't expect Kobe to receive a fair shake both in the court room and in the media. That's simply the reality of the black male. As I've stated before, it was Kobe who set these events into motion in part because he thought that his wealth and fame would protect him from the consequences of his skin color. He now knows how wrong he was but that's OK. Kobe is a wealthy man and can afford the best defense money can buy and I'm sure things will work out one way or the other.
This is no way close to the OJ fiasco. People died in the OJ case. The only thing that's dead here is Kobe's reputation.
HillBoy, sit back, have a cold glass of lemonade, and let's continue a rational argument (formal debate as opposed to a quarrel) because in the grand scheme, we're only submitting ideas for our own personal edificaton. First, please don't put words in my mouth that I have never uttered or attribute ideas I have never envisioned. I am quite capable of flights of lunacy on my very own. Now, as far as my "seeds planted" hypothesis, I must first ask if you ever watch MSNBC, CNN or Fox News. Any of the three have had quite a number of Kobe Bryant apologists spewing forth all sorts of scenarios, including the slander of the chief witness. You must live in a cloistered world indeed if you do not believe Law Team Kobe is not orchestrating the symphony (although not playing the instruments themselves). In truth, your hypothesis (I contend that in cases such as this one where race, wealth & sex all collide, the perception becomes the reality. In this country, the perception of the black male has changed little over the years since I grew up in Houston. For many white people, the fearsome subhuman image of the black male is their truth.) does sadden me. I have seen the world change immensely -- and for the good -- in race issues. Granted, there's still plenty of room for more tolerance and greater acceptance among all races, but time heals all. It is the constant picking at the scabs of past racial injustice -- as you seem intent on doing -- that keeps the wound from finally healing. What is ironic in this case is that Kobe Bryant is the Goliath and the chief witness is the "Davida." However, please do not condemn this Colorado community just because they are mostly white. They may be more forward thinking and fair minded than you think. Then again, they may not be. But the same argument can be made for any place in America. Or, perhaps you believe that all white people are descended from slave owners and therefore long to hold black people in subjugation once again. If this is your presumption, then this dialogue is meaningless. However, I doubt this is the case. I look forward to your impassioned response.
I abhor people using the word victim to refer to the girl before verdict, that implies Kobe is guilty before trial.
me, too she's the accuser until further notice. Vanessa is a victim, as is the baby. Both Kobe and Katie are bad actors, one of whom may be worse than the other, but we don't know which.
Friendly Fan and Panda: I prefer the term "chief witness" or "lead witness." I agree that "victim" and/or "alleged victim" is too prejudicial but it is the State of Colorado who is the "accuser."
You know what the scary thought is? If the accuser is being harassed like this now , imagine what would happen if Kobe is actually proven guilty and sent to jail. She'd have to change her name, get plastic surgery, and go into seclusion for a long, long time.
Dear Friendly; IMHO you are correct that Vanessa and their child are victims, but you included 'Katie' as a bad actor. Why? She has not admitted to anything that is public knowledge that I know of. Do you have evidence to the contrary. So far, only Kobe admitted to consensual sex. That does not prove that they actually had consensual sex, does it? Everyone seems have leaped to the conclusion that just because he admits it, it is true. Maybe he just said that to legitimize what he did, maybe not. It would be half-way decent way to diffuse the whole situation, if now everyone thought the two them were equally guilty. It didn't work if that was what it was designed to do though, did it? As for Hillboy's conclusion that Kobe or any other black man can't get a fair trial. I just don't think I agree with any of your arguments, except that I doubt that Kobe's crew is motivating the white supremicist group entering the picture. They are perfectly capable of screwing up the situation by themselves.
Well, I don´t think Kobe´s identity should have been released either, but at least he has the means to protect himself from things like what the young woman has to live through right now. It´s like you´re saying: They did one stupid thing (releasing Kobes identitiy) so I don´t see why they shouldn´t do another stupid thing (release hers too). This is not about to children getting an equal amount of icecream. This is about people´s safety.
To me you seem to be confused about how the system works. I also doubt that there will be a fair trial, but I don´t think it will be tilted the way you seem to think. Yes, Kobe is black and that does (regrettably) work against him. What is even more improtant though is that Kobe has tons of money to spend on lawyers and PR and stuff (he MIGHT even be able to make his ethnicity work for and not against him). If you´re rich you stand a better chance. If Kobe was a poor black man, he would MOST probably get to spend a lot of years in prison.
No doubt this case has attracted all of the "experts" to the cable news shows to offer their "spin" on the merits and demerits of the Kobe case. But to assert that it's Team Kobe that's somehow orchestrating events behind the scenes is a bit too conspiratorial for me to accept (and I'm the cynical one). Where you see a conspiratorial pattern, I see the normal media masturbations that always accompany high profile events such as the Kobe affair. All those media outlets feed on the tragic and the sensational and that's what you are seeing in this case. Remember the Mark Chymura affair? It was the virtually the same type of frenzy though on a much lesser scale due to the fact that both accuser and accused were white and therefore, not as "news-worthy". I grant that the world has changed in many ways for the better - in some ways for the worse but that's not what this case is all about. What's happening here, particularly in the press, is yet another dramatization of the old black male-white female sexual stereotype. That's what makes it so sensational and that's why you see all of those talking heads pontificating on TV. For many, if not most white people, their sole contact with black folks is by the images they see on TV and it's those images of the black criminal, the black sex fiend, that feed into the general climate of fear that has engulfed this country. No black male is ever safe from being characterized this way (and suffering the consequences) which is why we/they/I must maintain a level of constant awareness about who we are, where we are and what we are doing. Now this, Kobe did NOT do and now he finds himself up in the frying pan. Remember, in cases such as these, it is the perception that becomes the reality. The perception of the black male handed down through US history is that we/they are sexual beasts who are incapable of controlling their "urges" and that no white woman is safe in our presence. For a black male, it's the kiss of death to be accused of rape or sexual assault of a white female because once that occurs, you are DONE. And if you think I'm exaggerating, just take a look at the number of black males that are now being freed by DNA evidence from prison after spending YEARS behind bars. Look at how many of them were accused of sexual assault or rape and were convicted with no physical evidence at all. Were Kobe just another black guy, an ordinary fellow, his fate would be sealed. Those "fair-minded" folks in Eagle County would be ready to string him up (so to speak) and many would happily furnish their own string. As such, his wealth will serve him well because he will have access to legal resources that the rest of us don't. That's why I said that he'll be OK in the end.
That's exactly my point. The issue is not whether or not Kobe will get a fair trial because fairness is not an issue here. The criminal justice system is not about justice or fairness - it exists to convict and punish. In many cases, the actual guilt or innocence of the accused is inconsequential.
One thing that I found interesting was that the mugshot of Kobe that was released to the press was virtually idential to that of OJ Simpson that Time magazine published on their cover after they had "darkened" it to make OJ look more "sinister".
FanTAStic post. To all those who place the onus of break-ins and threats on Kobe's accuser, how about assigning some blame to Sheriff Hoy for announcing to the media of Kobe's arrest before the charges were even filed. That is the single action which set the media and fans on their hunt for her ID.
HillBoy: "No doubt this case has attracted all of the "experts" to the cable news shows to offer their "spin" on the merits and demerits of the Kobe case. But to assert that it's Team Kobe that's somehow orchestrating events behind the scenes is a bit too conspiratorial for me to accept (and I'm the cynical one)." I have big church doings today, so I apologize for not having time for a more detailed response until this p.m., but I just wanted to clear up one point since you think I have a "conspiracy theory" attitude. First, I do not believe in any cnspiracies. However, the media is easily manipulated with a little juicy leak here and another little juicy leak there. Most reporters are too lazy to trace these leaks to the source -- or worse, they merely don't want to know the whole truth. Using leaks judiciously (pardon the pun) and setting up their own propaganda (formal definition -- please ignore the negative connotation) machine, Law Team Kobe can and does "orchestrate" events. That's why and how they get the big bucks -- to lay the groundwork so they have every advantage they can get for their client in the courtroom. More later. Have a nice morning.
