CBS Sportsline: Underrated/overrated: Marbury, Stackhouse top lists

HeyP,

I totally understand the point you make on Wallace, he is not overrated, however,

your number one player has to score. Builing a team around a guy who can totally dominate the defensive end but has zero offensive game is not sound logic.

Lets say you build your team around Big Ben, since we are assuming he's the center piece, we can assume that everyone else is an average starter, so lets say that team is Cuttino Mobley, Mike Bibby, P.J. Brown, and Shawn Marion. You have two solid scorers, a good rebounder and a solid point who can knock down the outside shot.

That team may win you fifty games, but how far does that team go in the playoffs, when the defense gets tougher. Who gets double teamed, no one, exactly. That team would be too easy to shut down, considering you almost have an extra man on defense who doesn't have to guard anyone, and even if Cuttino requires a double team, you are still not killing yourself by bring up your center if Cuttino gets in the lane.

Now lets switch it around, lets say Carter is your small forward and Brad Miller is your center. Which is the better team. Obviously this is all hypothetical, but I will go with the team who has a superstar scorer with the average center, rather than the average scorer with the superstar but no offense center. If Carter gets double teamed, now we have center who can score off a dish, plus you have a decent rebounding team with Miller Brown.

 

Verse,

I was being totally facetious about Olowokandi, my post is really addressing how Rockets fans totally knock Francis for not winning but give a pass to Brand.

 

Here's another, Gasol is underrated but Francis is overrated, using what criteria??

 

So? If Brand does "whatever he can" to help his team win, either a) he's not doing the correct things, or b) he's incapable of leading his team to wins by himself.

Can we say that about Francis? He has singlehandedly pulled the Rockets asses out of the fire on numerous occassions. Was it enough to make the playoffs? No. But did it result in more wins than Brand, pre and post Yao? yes. Look at the Rox record two years ago with and without Francis. Much better with Francis. Were the Clippers any more successful with Brand last year than in the games when he was hurt? I don't know the numbrs, but I'm guessing not.

At best, their results have been equal (and I think its generous to Brand to say that). Yet Brand is the one who is constantly praised (on this board) and is a two time NT member, despite having played on the most underacheiving National Team in history. He didn't have the no-talent excuse then, but I didn't see him leading his team to wins. So who's overrated again?

Francis plays hard when he's on the court too, he throws his body around, grabs rebounds, does stuff that a small guy usually doesn't do. Just because you don't like his playing style doesn't mean you can implicitly question his work ethic.

 

GATER,

No, but only because Rose is 4 yrs older than Francis. For one season of play, I'd make that trade, though, and expect Rose to run a much better PnR with Yao, and add to our defense.

pgabriel,

note: your scenario is somewhat outside of what I was suggesting. In my scenario, all the true superstar scorers would be gone by the time it was your pick. Point is, would you pick a 2nd Tier scorer over Ben Wallace? I think a lot of people would in order to force fit a 2nd-Tier scorer into your superstar scorer philosophy, but I don't think coaches would. Once there were no more superstars left, I would expect Ben Wallace to be picked rapidly.

Your case, which surely is more popular than what I'm saying, is a good explanation of why I think Wallace is underrated; that is, because your philosophy to pick a scorer first is the prevailing philosophy of fans/media, a lot of people would select him 2nd round in a one-season draft of all NBA players. I don't think he would fall that far....thus, why I think he's underrated.

 

Stats don't mean anything to Verse, including wins.

 

I understand H.P.

so lets just take the example of Detroit today. If Chauncey Billups isn't playing out of his mind against Philly, does Detroit make the third round? If they had Brad Miller, surely a second tier player, do they have a better chance against Jersey when Billups is firing blanks? Maybe

 

lol!!

you're on a roll today.


the reason brand gets the praise, imo, is because he does all the things you want from a power forward. is he good enough to carry a team by himself? no.

the reason francis gets the criticism, imo, is because he does not do the things you want from a point guard. is he good enough to carry a team by himself? no.

you're right about francis' teams getting more w's than brands. then again, their situations have been different. brand started in chicago with a horrid team with zero talent. then he was sent to hades...err...the clippers - where no one cared about winning, only getting out of LA. francis came into a team that had talent (barkley, dream, cat, yao ming, motay, etc.) i think it's more than fair to say that francis has been surrounded by better talent than brand has.

but, i guess if you just want to look at the # of w's & l's to determine who the better player is, go ahead....but we all know that once again, stats have been exposed as the devil's handmaidens.

 

Verse, come on man, that is a borderline lie. Charles retired after twenty games that year, Hakeem only played 44, and averaged only 10 points and six boards.

The next year, hakeem plays 58 games, and they win 45 games, with Shandon Anderson in their lineup, and Mo Taylor averaging less boards than Steve. But we all know how much of workaholic MoTay is at the powerforward.

Elton Brand while with the Clips has played with Odom, Richardson, Maggatte, Olowokandi, and Miles his first full year there, and Miller his second.

Who plays on the more talented team???

 

aha!!

you say tomahto and i say tomayto.

but even if Billups is playing out of his mind, if Miller was the center and not Wallace, do you think Iverson would have been prevented from penetrating as much as he usually does?

Iverson had 9.2 apg but 5 TOs against Detroit vs 5.7/3.1 in the 1st round (which is his regular season stats). That drastic difference is an example of how the presence of Wallace altered Philly's game by making AI give up the ball much more than usual. AI also dropped from 1st round 44% to 38% in FG% on less shots....and it's not like New Orleans has no interior defense.

 

I agree. Williams has improved a lot since Hubie Brown became coach! Williams would still be crazy if he was still in Sacramento.

 

okay here's my awesome list

Underrated

- I agree with the list in the article, except for Kirilenko. Also slash out mashburn. He's good but not that damn good.

- Shawn Marion : yes he's an all-star, was an olympian, and his offense is a little shaky. But people forget sometimes how freakishly athletic and explosive he is. He is one of the few wing players in the nba that I would include in the frontcourt beef category as well because of his rebounding and defensive prowess.

- Troy Murphy : dude is the perfect roleplayer pf imo. Good rebounder, good defender, can pop the midrange j to keep the d honest, and mix it up inside. He's like a new Horace Grant.

- Brent Barry : another perfect roleplayer. Can seemingly adjust any backcourt mate with his complete offensive game. D still sucks, but lightyears better than it was before.


Overrated

- allan houston : no, not just because of his enormous contract, but also as a player. He's touted as one of the best sgs in the league, but really the only thing that's really exceptional about his game is his freaking jumpshot. No real post up game, average handles, average athleticism, sucky d. Whoopedidoo.

- jermaine oneal : one of the best young talents in the league, but HE should be winning more games and taking over when it counts. Yeah he puts up good numbers for 3 and a half quarters. And then? David Robinson-itis.

- Steve Francis : Great player, but not as great as the perception. Some think of him as the 3rd best pg in the league. More like one of the best versatile short athletic no d sgs in the league.

- tony parker : he's good for being so young, but some think he's already in the elite pgs. Don't think so. Can't play d and very inconsistant.

- Kirilenko and richard jefferson : both these guys are very similar. Products of great players playing in a good system. Neither are all that offensively but very good on d. I hear talk of "future stars". Sorry, I don't see it. good roleplayers yes, stars no.

 

We should never ever call Antoine Fat-Ass Walker an underrated player. Nobody thinks he's super star no more. Same case for Vince Carter, Mike Bibby, SAR, Jamison...

Bill Walton has almost single handly 'made' some stars in the NBA. Anybody agree? (I love this old man. He has a good brain but it has no connection with his mouth)

 

honestly, i do think the rockets have had more talent than the clips, even with a crippled chuck and fading dream. let's take a looksee:

clips

odom is a pothead who hasn't been 100% healthy in years. our resident pothead, motay, is about in the same boat, right?

richardson, imo, is overrated. take away the headknock sh*t and you'll see a glorified lawrence moten.

maggette just had his breakout year last year. before that he was verryyyy inconsistent.

olowokandi has always blown chunks.

miles has done absolutely nothing in the nba, despite all of his athleticism. fact is, the kid can't shoot and isn't very strong. his contributions have been negligible.

the clippers organization is a joke. that has to be factored in. everyone knows that they suck and no one really wanted to be there. i hope you don't think that's an atmosphere conducive to winning...

rockets

motay is our resident pothead, and was hurt for a year, however, he did provide strong 4th quarter scoring for us last year, and was an offensive threat before the injury. his boarding, well, in inadequate. but he is a consistent scoring threat.

chuck was basically on his way out when steve came in (due to injury).

dream, imo, was more responsible for the 40+ win season than steve was. we were floundering until rudy put dream in the 4th quarters instead of bullard/pig/wizard. when he went on that tear, we started winning games again.

cat mobley is better than any of the clippers supporting cast that you named...odom included...if for no other reason than the fact that he's consistent and stays on the court.

yao ming was here last year. i'd say that a huge upgrade over anything brand's worked with in los angeles.

the rockets organization is first class. we have pedigree, and players know that we will do what it takes to better our team and go for the trophy. in other words, players like being here...unlike los angeles.

conclusion

the clips organization sucks. their supporting cast has been underachieving and/or overrated. the rockets organization is great. our supporting cast is a better than the clippers.

 

pgabriel,

Much for the same reasons that Verse gave for his Brand/Francis argument, I would respond very similarly on Gasol/Francis.

Gasol has very Brand like #s across the board. Very comparable players production wise. Yet, like Brand, the offense is hardly run through Gasol. Yet, he does everything you want in a PF (could stand to improve on man defense but the tools are there), yet I think, at best, you would want him as a complimentary player or 2nd option if you are serious about contending for a title.

Seriously PG, in defense of Francis, I think hes somewhat a victim of his position and hype in that he will probably never be an efficient PG in the traditional sense (hence, alot of the bashing) and will always be hyped because of his flair.

 

Verse,

Just to add to your last post, I don't think anyone can discount the mere presence of a HOFer on your team, even if they are past their prime. I think an over the hill Hakeem and Barkley still account for something on a supporting cast.

 

Gasol is soft, period.

As far as expectations are concerned, given your criteria, Brand was overrated from day 1. He's a NUMBER ONE DRAFT CHOICE. How soon we forget. He was picked ahead of Steve, so I expect more from a guy who is supposedly a franchise player. His franchises haven't won.

Pau Gasol was a third pick, and in the same criticism of Brand, he has zero changing a game ability. First and third picks should change games, period.

So lets agree to this, if we are going to criticize Steve for not leaving up to franchise status, lets go ahead and say Pau and Brand have already FAILED at that.

 

Barkley had an effect on Steve, he gets rebounds and doesn't play defense. That sounds just like him.

Seriously, do you guys really think Barkley has positive effects on young players. We are talking about the same guy who threw a midget threw a window right? Or are we talking about the guy who came here and tried to displace Hakeem from the part of the court he liked to operate from.

Isn't funny, how Hakeem suddenly found renewed injury after Blockhead was forced to retire due to injury?? hmmm

 

I don't think the criteria of Over/Underrated has anything to do with past draft position. That's all in the past.

Pau, Brand and Francis have each lived up to their draft position. The question is a matter of current ratings. Do you think the fans/media over/underrate these guys based on their ability? It's no longer about past draft position, because they each have dynamically changing individual ratings.

but come on pgabriel..let's see your list

 

he not on the overratted list because every knows it now