Regressive Leftists

This is one of the fundamental problems I have with your whole thing about Islam. You act like all this violence, stoning, and mistreatment of women came about when Islam did and so associate it with Muslims. But the reality is all of those things were rampant prior to Islam.

Backwardness needs to be rooted out, you will never do that by attacking the religion though. A religion isn't what created the backwardness. It is the product of it.

 

You can attack all you like, I am only saying it's not productive. Telling a bunch of fundamentalist fanatics that their views are crazy isn't going to change their views, it's just going to inflame them further. You can do it, but all accomplishing absolutely nothing. It's like telling someone who believes in conspiracy theories that they are wrong. It doesn't work.

What you do doesn't make people less supportive of radicals. All you do is come across as really obsessed.

 

Criticism of religion from a third party will hardly ever work on the religious.
Christians cry persecution when atheists or secularists criticize Christianity and the same with Islam. No one likes their faith being criticized. There is no such thing as constructive criticism amongst the religious crowd when it comes to religion especially from an outsider. My rhetoric on Islam and yours isn't going to solve anything. It all amounts to a giant circle jerk.

This popped up on my facebook news feed. https://www.facebook.com/pamelagell...439?comment_id=10153780066252439&notif_t=like

Since I am a veteran, a large share of my facebook friends are veterans also and many of them have a distaste for Islam and some for Muslims as a whole. I see these stories being shared all the time on my news feed. Just read the comment section. It's a circle jerk of 'critics' of Islam. This is what a circle jerk of 'criticism' of Islam looks like.

Here are some various quotes:
"islam is the religion of murder, rape, pedophilia, and lies. Cannot believe a single word coming from 90% or more of muslims."

"Same way, 1 bullet to the head of a muslim, makes him a NON-MUSLIM because then he is ca DEAD muslim!!!"

"Wild and brutal Muslim savages with no respect for women and someone else's life. Muslims are worst than wild animals; even the Neanderthals were even more caring and civilized than these Islamic brainless brutes. Nevertheless, Islam is the savage ideology they want to impose by force all over the world."

"Mohammed and his band of ****ing sub human followers are nothing but paedophiles and that comic rag the quran is something I would only wipe my ass with,muslim scum should be and will eventually be exterminated,the rest of the world has had enough of these scummy bastards."

"That is just another reason to not trust muslims"

"Turn the Middle East to glass and be done with the dark age cult!!"

" A radical Islam will kill you, a moderate will hold his coat while he does it."

I can do this for weeks. When a significant portion of conservatives are willing to make these statements, it makes sense that there might be some pushback from the left.

I'm well embedded into conservative culture in the U.S. A large majority of infantry Marines are highly right wing. I hear this type of rhetoric all the time. ATW, you can't brush it off as some anonymous internet posters. There is a significant portion of American conservatives who are willing to state genocidal statements. As intelligent as individuals such as Bill Maher, Sam Harris or Richard Dawkins are, I find it quite puzzling why they can't figure out why many liberals find a need to 'defend' Islam. In actuality, 90% of the time liberals are defending Muslims, not Islam itself anyways.

I hope you could understand why sometimes I welcome these 'regressive' leftists as they are the ones who won't judge someone like my mother just because she is Muslim.

 

Trust me, I know you don't think that way. But I hope you understand why some of these 'regressive leftists' might exist. When they hear this bat**** insane rhetoric, they are worried. The intentions are well meaning because they are thinking of individuals just like my mother.

 

but that's what you inflame. Those are the people who agree with you. That's what I mean by you're not criticizing, you demonize. My approach is to find productive solutions. Attacking Islam is your right, but it is anti-productive because you just put people on the defensive. I have plenty of issues with that part of the world, but going around and saying "Islam = violence" isn't going to make a Muslim go, "wow, I never realized that". What it will do is get them to think that Westerns hate Islam and Muslims because they are Christians, and that's why the radicals exist. You are also helping people thing that Islam is evil on the western side by spreading this stuff.

So you are being doubly unproductive. If you want to change thing, your aim should be figuring out how do we fundamentally change that region so there's less poverty and ignorance, and the indoctrination of radicalism ends. Why not address the idea around why so many Muslims are not radicals and how they ended up not being violent.

We have to stand with peaceful Muslims, not isolate them and put them on the defensive by attacking Islam itself.

 

I'll also point out that we don't need to go to facebook to find comments like that. Here's a recent post on Clutchfans saying much the same thing. And you are on that thread ATW, and you don't call out this user as an idiot, while you do call out a different user. If you really want to be seen as separate from the xenophobes and bigots that the left is trying to combat, then instead of just calling out the left when their defense of Islam starts resembling the old Stalin apologists, you also have to call out those making these bigoted, ignorant and disgusting comments against Muslims which even you see as disturbing and idiotic.

For example, while I, as a radical leftists and supporter of anti-fascist direct action, would join in your criticisms of repressive, authoritarian, reprehensible Islamic groups, would you join in my criticisms of the xenophobic, bigoted and nationalistic behavior from groups like Pegida in Germany or Republicans like Trump and Carson here in the U.S.?

 

Oh, HoneyBear is just trolling? I didn't realize that. Guess I got got on that one.

But, all I want is less flag waving (not to say you are guilty of this, I'm just speaking generally) and more nuanced analysis. The Carlin - Harris debate I linked to for example was amazing -- and though I disagree with Harris's position and side much more with Carlin, the level of insight and civility both gave was what we need more of.

Understandable on you not knowing about Trump and Carson since you are German (I don't know nearly as much about Pegida as you do, I am sure). But I would just like reasonable people to see beyond ideological classifications of left and right, and be able to jointly analyze and criticize issues in the Islamic world without fueling the hatred espoused by groups like Pegida or the racist and nationalistic elements of the Republican party in the western world.

Perhaps then we'd stop supporting dictators, Islamists and authoritarians as part of our foreign policy in the middle east, and turn our support instead to groups that may be more to the left than our government would like, but which are supporting values of democracy, equality, tolerance and secularism (like the PYD in Kurdish Syria today or like Mossadegh in the past, whose overthrow by the CIA precipitated the rise of Islamists in Iran and highly exacerbated issues in the region).

 

You can believe what you will, but the net result is you inflame and demonize. The people that think that way love you on here. They are your biggest supporters. You may not have anything in common with them in your mind, but you are their champion. THink about that.

Let's not be disingenuous. You go far beyond what you claim here. It's laughable that you say you only criticize for these things. You have said Islam is a religion of hate and that Islam is inherently violent. You are not criticizing intolerance of Islam, you are declaring Islam to be incapable of being tolerant.

I know the difference between legit criticism and over-the-top attacks. You have a history of attacking, not just Islam but many posters on this board, including myself. Your behavior has been disturbing and obsessive.

Again, that is not what you are doing. You inflame. There is a big difference between inflaming and criticizing. At times you criticize. But others you demonize.

No problem with criticism. Again see above.

The whole world is already aware of these issues. We don't need you to tell us what goes on there. Everyone here ALREADY KNOWS.

Yes, you stand with a people by attacking them. That makes perfect sense. It's like saying let's stand with Americans by saying all Americans are evil capitalists and stupid. Hmmm, very supportive of those Americans who want to make change happen!

Drawing a line isnt what you do. You cross the line and spit on the other side.