You guys can whine all you want about Steve and Cuttino not being great passers (and believe me I have done that) but remember that during the Hakeem era we had freaking Kenny Smith and Vernon Maxwell feeding him! Kenny and Maxwell were not great passers but we made it work. We don't need to blow up the team, just give Steve and Cuttino a little bit of time to learn. I am pleased with the progress so far. And for those who don't want to blame Yao- do you guys remember how physical Hakeem was? Yao needs to get there before we let him off the hook. No excuses.
PREACH ON. yes Yao does need to get more physical, and he needs to work better to get in position to get the ball.
1) An arm is only a few feet long, that doesn't prevent defenders from fronting. It may slow them a bit. And I am 99% sure, Yao was using his arms this way in the game. It didn't work. You can blame it on him for not being effective using his arms but it didn't even work when Shaq did it. 2) Like I said, Yao can MOVE over when the defender is moving to get in front. This will put him out of postion in which case there's no point in passing him the ball when he'll be 18 feet out. Also, when you have a quicker defender, you'll lose in every way in denying the fronting. You can slide one step and you'll be 4 feet out of place. 3) I don't see what you noted at #3 prevents defenders from fronting. But I'll argue that anyway. One can turn a bit more to the left or right, the defender will still be able to get in front going the opposite direction from behind. It takes a good pass to get it right into Yao's hands. As I have said, I don't the players in the Memphis game have good enough skills to make a good pass. I don't think you remember that the turnovers he had right after he receives the pass in the post was because he held the ball low near his waist. When you have a guy fronting, he'll be catching it high. I'm sure Yao will get a foul called way more than he will turn it over when two defenders swat at the ball. His height and reach helps a lot here. Teams don't do it to Shaq because it hurts them more then not fronting. I have seen many times when Shaq turns that into a dunk or a alley-hoop dunk. We don't do it because we have incompetant passers. I thought I explained it very clearly the second time. It is the TIMING OF THE PASS that the passer needs to be good at. You said Yao held his position well for 2 seconds, though I'm sure he held for longer than that. Well, in 2 seconds the ball-handler should be able to get him the ball. They need to MAKE THE PASS QUICK right when he get's position. They need to be PATIENT WHEN HE IS GETTING INTO POSITION. I have counted three times right when Yao got good postion, I think it was Moochie and Cuttino that dribbled away. You would say that he needs to hold his postion longer so the ball handler can have enough time to get it to him. Well, it doesn't take a genius and much prepartion for the guy to pass the ball(and don't quote me on saying that we have incompetant passers because that was for the lob pass with the defender fronting) to the post.
Now reading Chinese articles from different sources, I am convinced we have a bigger problem that our poor performance last night. The problem is our locker room, which causes the selfish plays last night. It was not Yao's fatigue, nor was the guards were not able to pass the ball to the low post. It was their intention not to assist each other - a fight of supremacy, not against our opponents but against themselves. Such unhealthy competition will kill our hope for a playoff spot if that is not handled well!
give him some time. look at the progress of him from last year to now. did you see him dunking/moving like that last year?
You have to admit though that both Kenny and Vernon new that Dream was the man on this team. Dream was established well before either of those two arrived. And I would have to say that Kenny was a far supperior passer to either Steve or Cat.
These "reports" don't have any facts or quotes to back them up, they can just as well be writen by some people on this board. Don't be fooled and lighten up.
Yes, he needs time. I am not criticizing him. I am very impressed so far. He is our most improved player easily.
I really hope Steve and Cat are passed all this "who is the man" stuff. Yao is the man. I'm tired of the drama.
Nice posts whats up. Basically everything you said about getting the ball in the post was dead on. One thing about fatigue. Yao battled for position almost every time down the court in the first half and most of the third quarter. Being denied the ball so many times down the floor, I think Yao kinda lost interest in trying to get position. In the 4th quarter, instead of the usual player going through a Yao pick from the baseline, we ran it on the other side opposite of Yao. I saw Yao set the pick and was ready quite a few times but the team just elected to go the other way. Eventually, Yao just ended up as a spectator, not even bothering to set the pick. When your the most consistent option on the team yet is being completely ignored on offense, the resulting lack of enthusiasm can sometimes be mistaken as fatigue. In my opinion, he was much more frustrated then tired. Its sad to see Yao work so hard all night, battling for position while the ball is being swinged and dribbled around the perimeter. What sucks more is that because he is so nice, he gives the smart PR response by saying how it was partly his own fault for not getting the ball because his position was bad, and that it is a team sport, too many turnovers, people weren't making shots,..... He says everything but the one thing he really wants to say, but just can't say it. *sigh*
Incorrect. You might want to check your math on that 99%. 1) Yao was not using his off arm. 2) When he was using his off arm, he was not doing it properly. The off arm is used as a shield against the other player's arm that he is using to deny. If the defender goes under Yao's arm, then Yao brings his arm down to block.Go watch some old tapes of Hakeem Olajuwon. If done propery, the only way for a defender to deny the pass, would be to reach his arm around Yao's neck. This would be a foul that would be called more often than not. 3) Yao's arm is longer than most player's torsos. If Yao his holding his position and has his arm out to prevent the defender from coming around to his front, then the defender has to either a) Knock Yao's arm away (foul) or b) Take a wider angle around Yao to get in front of him, thus, enabling an entry passer to make a quick pass in that doesn't have to be a lob. This technique has been taught, is being taught and will always be taught. 18 feet out?? lmao Way to exagerrate. Using a couple of shuffle steps will not affect his positioning in such a way as to take him out of his range. Incorrect again. You act like there is only a 1 or 2 foot box in which Yao is effective when receiving a pass. If anything, Yao sliding to the left makes his baseline spin move that much more effective (thus my comment about him angling his body as to cheat towards the baseline). You can dismiss these techniques and any other I cite all day and all night. These techniques are taught by basketball coaches and used by big men and they have proven to be effective if used properly. In fact, if you want, email me your address. Ill be happy to mail you my copy of one of Pete Newell's books, where these techniques are talked about. If you want to buy your own copy, then here is a link to Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_4/103-3897232-6265452?v=glance&s=books I am quite sure we will see Yao use them to his advantage sooner rather than later. Incorrect again. If a defender is cheating over Yao's left side, Yao can turn to his right and receive a quick bounce pass. Just like you have talked about. If he doesnt turn, then there is no way for the guards to make this pass effectively. And it takes good technique on a big man's part to make sure the entry pass doesn't have to be fine or tricky. Its a two way street. Yao has had plenty of nice entry passes made to him since he has been a Rocket, so dont act like our guards arent capable of it. Yes, Yao does catch it high, and he has a bad habit of bringing it down low, thus making it easy to turn the ball over. And regardless of whether he gets a foul called or not, why not keep the ball higher, and protect it so that he either has the chance to score or be fouled?? Yao should never bring the ball down below his waist when he is in point blank range. Catch it, hold it high and dunk it. Teams don't do it to Shaq, because hes good at not letting his man do that. You know why?? Because he is physical and has good technique and will push his man far out on the perimeter, thus creating lots of room between himself and the basket. Last night, as soon as the entry passer received the ball, Yao's man was fronting him almost immediately. So quick in fact, that he would have been able to get around to knock the pass away even if the pass came in immediately. I agree that its about timing, but Yao having positioning problems don't help. Furthermore, patience should only last so long. By the time we get into our set, there is usually only, max, 16 secs left on the clock. If Yao takes too long to battle for position, then in order to a good shot out of the posession, the ball has to be swung back around the perimeter. This takes time too, so its not like our guards can afford for Yao to take more than a few secs to establish good enough position to receive a pass. I have have counted alot more than 3 times where Yao couldnt seal off his man. Its a two way street. Takes two to tango. etc. Both Yao and the guards hold responsibility to make sure he gets a good entry pass. It doesn't take a genius to know that throwing in a pass, regardless of a) whether the post player has proper position and b) The post player's defender is reaching around to deny the entry pass is a low % pass and is flat out asking for a turnover. Seriously, if you cant admit that both the post player and entry passer share a responsibilty to make that entry pass a high % play, then I don't know what else to tell ya. Its becoming obvious that you just want to say that Yao can do no wrong and that there is never an excuse not to throw it to him when hes in the post. I sure am glad that JVG doesnt see it this way. And quit talking about the lob pass. Zone defenses prevent this from being a high % option. And before you go and cite Shaq as an example of how this can work, lets remember that Yao is a) Not as strong as Shaq and b) Not as explosive as Shaq. These two factors make it harder for him to just go up and dunk on a weakside defender.
PS - I love it how when JVG and Yao himself point out Yao's flaws and defend the guards, that its all bout them being "PR" or "manipulating the media". Yet, when someone like Chad Ford comes out and critisizes Steve Francis, then his word is taking as the gospel. Geez, if you can't trust Yao and JVG to tell the truth about the things Yao needs to work on, then you certainly shouldn't trust them on anything they say. Ever.
Using the free arm can draw the foul as easily as being called for a foul. With the defender running around the arm can get hooked and the post player will be called for a foul. You are assuming that the defender is less than arm length away. I see how it can slow the defender down. When the defender is much quicker, how HARD is it and how MUCH TIME does it take for him to run 3 feet around Yao and then back to get in front? None of your techniques work if the quicker defender is 3 feet or more away. Quicker defenders will be able to get away when Yao posts and be able to front him. I don't know how many Lakers games you watch, but opposing teams seldom make an effort to front him -- NOT that they can't. When Shaq catch lob passes, he's always closer to the basket than when he just posts up. Yes, Shaq is more explosive and much quicker so he scores most of the time when he gets a lob pass. I didn't say Yao can score easily like Shaq on a lob pass. You did agree that Yao can catch a lob pass in your earlier post. That's what I wanted to stress -- just for Yao to catch the lob pass. He doesn't have to score off of it. You were saying that by the time he catches the ball the weak side defender will be in his face. I didn't suggest that Yao bring the ball down. Since he catches it up high, he can pass it out or better yet pass it to the open man cutting to the basket(or take the shot). Yes, zone defence makes it harder for lob passes. You're thinking that the help defender will catch it first or steal it. But when the passer makes the pass, it should land closer to where his post player is. I see a perfect execution of the lob pass where Yao can catch it first and be fouled or that he passes to an open man when the help defence comes. We can't make that happen because we have incompetant passers. And yes, 18 feet is exaggerating. But again, just shuffling the feet to slide over works when the defender is less than arm-length away. Quicker defenders will be able to distance themselves with Yao and get in front. There's a small time interval where we can make a pass into the post. And again we need better passers than what we had in the Memphis game. Most players, if not all, are only able to get the good post postion for a short period of time. This is where a passer with good decision making can benefit the team. But the point that I'm arguing is fronting can't be stopped(or at least 90% of the time) when you have a quicker defender on the post player. You're acting like what you're saying are definte facts. I NEVER said anything close to meaning that Yao was perfect. I just stress what the other players can do to combat the fronting. I certainly see how someone can infer that I'm blaming players other Yao. But one thing that should GO ONLY ONE WAY is: if Yao is the FOCAL POINT ON OFFENCE, then the ball-handler MUST WAIT (longer) for him to get position. If he's not the focal point of the offence, then it's not a problem. I see him as the first option on offence and I saw the ball-handler gave up too quickly too many times!
Geez! It can go either way. You don't know whether they're telling the truth or just trying to protect the players! I don't know either! As far as coming out and pointing admitting their own mistakes, it was about what they did wrong and not what they could have done differently. My arguments had been on what they "could have" done.
I agree with whats up that there's no way to stop your defender from fronting you if he's so determined to a point that he is willing to take the risk of the post player receiving a clean pass and getting off an uncontested shot easily by moving 3 feet away from you. that said, there're techniques that make fronting more difficult. granted, Yao's a much worse player at holding the position and sealing off his man than Shaq or Hakeem. but even Shaq and Hakeem(used to) get fronted from time to time.
Incorrect. A post player is entitled to position. Knocking an offensive players are away is a foul, even though it is not always called. If Yao is strong enough, then a defender is going to have to committ a blatant foul in order to get through his arm. Not only is the defender less than an arm lenth away, he should be behind the post player before reaching around to deny entry or trying to front. IN the time that it takes a defender to run around an extended arm, a quick pass can be made to the post players strong arm. Incorrect. They do work and they have worked and they will always work. Go watch tapes of Hakeem and quit making excuses for Yao not to learn technique. Go read Pete Newell's book. I am assuming you know who he is. I wanna see you dismiss these techniques as ineffective or non existant afterwards. You won't be able to do it, nor have you done it in this thread. They don't front him because of his technique. Ive watched enough games to know that. Go read the book. Agreed. My point was about the habit of him bringing the ball down too low. Yao has turnover problems with the lob pass because of this. No, IM thinking the zone defender will be there to contest the shot. lol Ideally, your scenario sounds good. Yet, until both Yao and the guards work on the timiing of this, then its a risky play that the opposition can effectively defend. And because we have a post player that is still learning technique. Two way street. If a defender is 3/4 denying the ball, then he will always be an arm lenth away because he will be draped all over Yao's back. Furthermore, as stated many times, if Yao seals off his man, then the defender should not be able to get in front of him. Not true. Ive seen many a post player hold his position longer than a second or two. This is where a post player with good technique can benefit the team also. Absolutely not tree. Fronting can be stopped. Im not saying its the easiest thing in the world, but there is no doubt that it can be stopped, regardless of the quicker defender. Well 1) I can tell you that it is a fact that there are techniques available for big men to help prevent fronting and sealing off your man. 2) I can tell you that it is a fact that these techniques have been used, are being used and will always be used. You have basically said that there is nothing Yao can do to make sure he can get a clean entry pass. You have dismissed proven techniques in doing so. In turn, you have blamed the guards only. So how can't one infer that you feel Yao is not perfect or that he can do no wrong?? If Yao is going to be the focal point of the offense (something I want too), then he is going to have to work on his positioning and post technique even more so than if he wasn't. JVG and Ewing have both come out and said this. We can't go several positions without being able to pass him the ball because of positioning issues.
Its easy to dismiss the coach and player's opinion as not telling the truth when their opinion is different from yours. And you have basically said that Yao can do nothing to prevent his positioning mistakes. You have only pointed to the guards, whereas I have pointed to both. Two way street.
whats up, your argument is sound. Codell just didn't know when to admit that he is wrong. He just keeps arguing in circle. 1) Using the off-arm to prevent the defender to overplay or front u can easily be called an offensive foul as much as the call going the defender. The refs usually allow the post player to extend his arm half way and ward off the defender. If he extends it fully, swing it up and down or swing the elbow much further back, it's an offensive foul. If the defender wants to really front you, there is nothing you can do unless you grab him. 2) Sliding with him will move you away from the basket. Codell said just take some small steps and you can keep the defender behind you. Explain to me then, if you take 2 small steps and the defender takes 3 big steps to go around you, how do prevent him from fronting you? You punish the overplay/ fronting by throwing a lob or throw to the side away from defender. Since the ball is not going straight to the post man, he needs to realease and go get the ball. This requires timing, good passing angle ... Memphis was harrassing our entry passer the whole time they front Yao. A lot of times. we were not in good position nor did <B>we</B> have good angle. <B>We</B> were not ready to pass or receive the ball at the same time. The Rockets still need to work on this as a team.
Codell's argument that fronting can be stopped is based on the assumption that the defender is less than arm length away. I think he would agree that fronting just for the sake of fronting, for example moving away 3 feet from your man and get back in front of him, cann't be stopped. however, in the real game situation, no defender would try that kind of move. moving away from you man and leaving him completely open is suicidal. even the worst guards in NBA would be able to make a pass to the post player before his defender moving back from 3 feet away. so there's no need continuing this argument.
The TRUTH at last. The Lord be Praised! Just one more game playing Rudy Ball and then JVG will get 'it'!!
