europe is further along in separating church and state but we are lght years ahead of them in integrating immigrants.
It's going to be interesting to see how they cope with declining birth rates of the existing population compounded against loose immigration policy and a very generous welfare state.
I'm definitely one of the people that the OP is talking about. I think that JV sums it up nicely that Europe is an example in certain areas where some of the more liberal ideas are in practice and are successful in some way or the other. I guess this is where I am coming from. I grew up in a family that fit many of the American stereotypes. My grandfather was a baptist preacher for 60 years. A lot of my family served in the military. We were white and middle class. I had no choice but to believe in God and Country. I was indoctrinated from the moment I popped out. I believed in God and never for a second did I ever think that there was a possibility that it wasn't true. I believed that America was the greatest country in the world and pretty much thought that everywhere else was second class, beneath us. I definitely believed these things without question. Even at an early age, pre adolescent, I constantly had this nagging feeling in my mind that something just was not right. I could never put my finger on it and most of the time I just chalked it up to God testing me. After I graduated high school, I joined the Navy. I didn't join because I felt obligated, I joined because I wanted too. My dad was actually very against the idea of my joining the military as he wanted me to go to college. I passed up several full ride scholarships to several very good schools. I guess the reason for me joining was several fold. I wanted to serve my country first and foremost. I was a very proud Texan and American. That is not to say that I am not proud now, I just feel different now than I did then. Anyway, I also wanted to get away from home. I knew that I needed to get out from underneath my parents and out of the situation from which I lived. My dad was a drunk, my mom was supportive but never very close and with her own issues, and I knew that my family, as a whole, was severely dysfunctional. I knew that I didn't want to be in that environment anymore. I felt that joining the military would be a way of serving my country, severing the ties with idiot family, and also a way of learning a trade and making money. This was my first time outside of my comfort zone of family and church. I know I just got through dogging my family but they were also a comfort zone. I never felt that I was unloved, I knew they loved me. It was a comfort zone mostly because I didn't know anything different. Once I was on my own, I remained faithful to the Christian church for a long time, probably 10 years. I definitely began to question things more and I was more vocal about my questions. A lot of things just didn't make sense to me. I think the nagging suspicions that I had since a young kid were the inherent double standards that I had seen growing up. My family would act one way on Sunday and Wednesday nights but the rest of the time they were intolerant and racist. I saw how many of the elders and leaders in the churches that we were a part of were the same. I saw how everything was all about perception. No one ever mentioned my dad's alcoholism and made excuses for his behavior while at the same time condemning others with similar struggles. I also met people from other countries and I began to learn about different cultures and ways of life. The fact that other people in our world do just fine actually shocked me. Much more so than the idea of God being ridiculous. I think that was the case because it was much more immediate. My journey to being agnostic was long and painful. My journey to seeing America in a different light was much quicker and easier because it had no afterlife implications and there was a lot more tangible evidence. I'm also sure that everyone knows, as I am quick to point out sometimes, that I'm now married to a European. When we met, my conversion to being a full out agnostic was not complete. The more I learned about Europe, Sweden in particular, and their thoughts and ideas on all kinds of topics, especially religion, the more things just made sense to me. It took me a long time to be comfortable with the idea that I do not believe in God. It didn't take me quite so long to believe that there is a lot to learn from other people, their countries, cultures, and governments, I like the idea of people taking care of people. I like how tolerant they are in certain respects such as equal rights for gays. I like how they want to take care of the environment. I like how religion is personal and not taken so literal or serious. I think that it is flat out arrogant to think that America cannot learn from these people. I also know how good a lot of these people are and how they do not understand Americans and our government because of our arrogance. We aren't better than them and they do not feel that they are better than us. Hell, my wife's grandfather was skeptical of me because I am an American from Texas. He thought that we were all nuts because of Bush. Honestly, I didn't blame him one bit.
Following on my prior theme, I'd say it is because Europe mostly comes up in partisan debates. The people who mention Europe are advocating for a particular policy change and are using Europe as a piece of evidence of why it is a good idea. Or, they are using Europe as a piece of evidence why someone else's idea is a bad idea. In debate, you don't want to poke holes in your own argument by mentioning shortcomings. I think some people occassionally take the intellectual shortcut of using the European model as a destination instead of an example. Or, of using Europe as a irrelevant example, ignoring all the differences that make a direct comparison impossible. But, on the flipside, others stubbornly insist on avoiding European ways so that we aren't following someone else's lead. Or, are trying to tear down a valid comparison by making (perhaps truthful but) irrelevant criticisms of the countries in question.
Because in most cases those shortcomings are irrelevant. Most people cite Europe in a context. They'll say "Europe is doing X that America should be doing." The fact that Europe has other issues that may be bad has little relevance to the actual point. Unless someone is saying Europe is better at everything, I really dont see the issue. I personally think European countries (and it varies by country so we shouldnt conflate the issue) have tons of issues but that wont stop me from citing something they do well.
It is attractive for some to see the smaller percentage of the truly poor or those who lack of health insurance in Western Europe. Unless you were raised or acquired conservative ideology, you just can't comfortingly view it as all the fault of the lower class in the US or an unfortunate situation that can't be avoided without totalitarianism. You see that the statistics and reality are that their lots would be better off in the Western European countries that approximate our GDP per person. As far as the middle to upper middle class goes, what is so bad with assured long vacations, health care, free college and pensions for all. There is a certain thrill in having a marginally better chance to become a multi-millionaire in the US, but along with this comes the anxiety of having your ability to retire comfortably or send your kids to college without indebting them for 10 to 20 years dependent on the vicissitudes of the housing or stock markets.
I love America! People are dying to get here. Who wants to be like Europe? I like their food, girls, transit system, swiss bank accounts, clean energy, sexy accents. I hate their high gas prices, french women that don't bathe, high taxes, and being next to Russia.
I also love their employee benefits. What's wrong with 1 month of vacation time to spend with your family, after spending most of the year with your boss? Live a little.
Read Deuteronomy 8:1-5. "All the commandments that I am commanding you today you shall be careful to do, that you may live and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the Lord swore to give to your forefathers. <b>You shall remember all the way which the Lord your God has led you in the wilderness these forty years, that He might humble you, testing you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not.</b> He humbled you and let you be hungry, and fed you with manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that He might make you understand that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of the Lord. Your clothing did not wear out on you, nor did your foot swell these forty years. Thus you are to know in your heart that the Lord your God was disciplining you just as a man disciplines his son." Deuteronomy 13:1-3. "If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,' you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; <b>for the Lord your God is testing you to find out if you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.</b>"
The chance of becoming a multi-millionaire is very small, and getting increasingly smaller with each passing year. Also, Europe has plenty of multi-millionaires. The fact is, there is no good excuse for the failure of the United States to provide for its citizens as well as European countries do. The only reason the state of affairs has continued as long as it has originates in the connection between the wealthy and government officials, and the capitalist propaganda that most of our media trumpets and most of our populace inexplicably adopts. What's more, since most of these forms of citizen-care are already institutionalized in European countries, there's no reason why the United States can't study them closely and do them even more efficiently.
MB -- your story is a very familiar one to me...because the church in america has become so consumed by the culture surrounding it....instead of being the counter-culture i believe it's called to be. when i talk to people about God, so many have this experience you've had. they've seen the dishonest hypocrisy...the less than authentic relationships...and it colors their capacity to believe in anything even remotely similar to what "those people" believe in. believe me when i say, i get it. i really do. i believe in God and understand him through the lenses of Jesus...and frankly i find that to be radically different from a lot of the church in america. i know you'll say "it's not you, max" or something like that...but i'm deeply, deeply sorry that the church presented you such a distorted view of who I understand God to be. i'm actually reminded of the opening to a great book called Jesus for President... watch the little opening, and i think it will resonate with you: http://www.jesusforpresident.org/
I'll just mentioned a few things that I think are generally better in the more economically prosperous European nations (Germany, Switz., France, GB, Ire., Neth etc) than in the US. -public transit -efficient and effective health care -vacation -family/child leave There are some differences as DD mentioned, and some things I would not trade what we have for theirs, but it is worth noting some of the above positives have a high impact on quality of life.
Seeing the inner workings of the church definitely turned me off. Other things like my grandparents completely abandoning me and my family after my dad's death didn't help that either. It's one of those, if this is Jesus working in their life, I don't want anything to do with it. I say these things and I think that it makes me sound bitter but I'm not. I'm actually the most at peace in my life than ever before and I'm for the first time really happy. I've been really happy for several years. I always felt this inner struggle for who I thought I was supposed to be and how I was supposed to act and how I thought I really was and wanted to act. I felt guilty for everything. I don't feel guilty anymore and actually think that I am a better person today than I was then. I'm more responsible, I'm a better husband and father, and I think I much more often than not, do the right thing. I think in the past I was very passive aggressive and kept a lot of things pent up. It's not that I hated myself but I do like who I am much better than I did. I'm definitely more patient. During the time I was questioning everything I did a lot of research and it brought me to conclusion that God doesn't exist. Lots of people over history have believed in lots of gods. They were just as adamant and sure about their god (or gods) as Christians are about their God. While I grew up being taught that there is tons of undeniable, tangible evidence of God, the more I looked, the more not true that seemed to be. The more I thought about it, I never heard or saw of anything other than a preacher saying that this evidence existed. You had faith in what he was telling you was the truth and faith that God existed. Faith just doesn't cut it for me anymore. While what you say about God is sometimes enticing because I lived in it for so long, I don't think I could ever get over the fact that the idea of God existing doesn't make sense to me anymore. It may sound like I'm being arrogant about it but I feel like I've evolved to where I don't need God or the idea of God as a crutch anymore. I don't mean that the way it sounds and I apologize in advance. It's just how I feel and I don't know of a nice way to express it. I think that if I was going to believe in God again, I don't think it would be able to believe in the Christian God with Jesus and that whole thing. I could probably believe in a God that doesn't have a personal relationship with people. If I had to envision God, He\She\It would be too busy for something as silly as all of us idiots here and elsewhere. I think that is why the European philosophy of religion is appealing to me. It isn't intrusive.
MB -- interesting stuff. of course there is zero mention of a "personal relationship" with jesus in the bible. again, i think we come back to american theology here...the bible is a product of eastern thought...judaism an eastern religion (though not far east). it's interesting, because it appears christianity put the clothes of greek/roman imagery regarding god on about 300 years in. that fueled the whole dualism...creation = good / heaven = bad...mindset that has no basis in what I understand God to be about. you might like this video....i'm really not trying to convince you of anything....just sharing my perspective...i hope that doesn't come across like i'm beating on the bible or something. it frustrates me to no end that the american church is selling something they call god which doesn't look like God to me. and it REALLY TRULY pains me when i see how that plays out in others' lives. though, i'm so encouraged to hear how well you are doing in your life and all the awesome things about being a father and husband.
I agree with you. A lot of Americans have this view of Europe as some sort of progressive paradise. Racism there is far worse than it is here. You think they have ramps for wheelchairs there? France's clean energy comes from nuclear power. I think in general the US is wealthier. But that comes at a cost too. We generally have to work harder for it.
I enjoy and appreciate the discussion. I feel no pressure at all. I actually enjoy reading the history behind Christianity quite a bit. I think my wife thinks it is kind of weird considering my agnostic views. For some reason my browser isn't liking YouTube videos, I'll figure it out and watch them soon.
