I never really understood why the left was opposing vouchers that much. I heard the arguments from the left that it: 1. Combines church and state ( most private schools are religious) 2. It increases segregation (since private schools can technically deny entrance for any reason, while not blatantly using race, there can be criterions to be used to achieve that end). But to me that's only problematic in application. I think instead of constantly trying to fight the right about it, the Left should concern itself more with trying to add different rules for voucher programs. To me, they can just add a couple rules, for example 1. Any school (even private religious ones) that accepts vouchers from any students must not force (though unlike public schools permit) it's religious influence on it's students, and may not deny students who want to be in the school admission based on religious preference. 2. Any school that accept vouchers must have a system that promotes racial intergration (much like most colleges do these days) and have an acceptance rate that is proportional to the number of applicants (while I think a quota systmes is bad, if a school has say 30% of it's applicants being minorities and it only accepts 3%, then there is a very obvious problem). I personally think that if applied correctly, voucher can be a good system to bring better education to the less privilidged (what Bush is using as his reason to push for vouchers). What do rest of you guys think, is it possible to have vouchers without dividing the nation's students based on race or religion?
If Vouchers are approved, why can a school not teach its religion? The whole point of vouchers is that your kid is going to school, but your basically being double charged for their education. Nobody is forcing a person going to a catholic school, so therefore, I think they have a right to practice and teach their beliefs. Race ... thats a different story.
I've always that vouchers help pays for the private education. I think that anytime the federal gov't funds education, religion shouldn't be forced upon as part of that education. Now I have no problem if a religious class is offered as a non required elective in schools that accept vouchers (as oppose to public school that doesn't allow them at all), but I do have a problem if kids have to say, meet in home room everyday and learn about any religion.
I have a problem with public schools, as woefully underfunded as they are, losing even more money because it's being passed out as vouchers. I pay a hell of a lot in property taxes to fund the school district my children attend and I want to see every penny in their schools giving them the finest education possible. And I want teachers to get the salaries they deserve. If anyone wants a voucher, they've got them already... it's called your checkbook. Pull it out and pay for a private school that teaches the way you want. Problem solved.
Problems I have with vouchers is that it lacks equity. The way vouchers are pitched is like school property tax payers with children will get a refund toward sending their kids to private school. As a person who has paid school taxes for the last 22 years without having a single child in public schools, where is the benifit for me. OTOH the family with five kids living in a dump (and thus paying little or no property tax) are looking to get significant amounts of money for each child to go to private school. Does that make any sense? As an analogy, my local, state, and federal taxes pay for the public roads I drive on. If I am dissatisfied with the public roads, I can damn well build my own private roads that I can use as I see fit. I will still be paying for the public roads which I can use if I chose to. School property taxes are paying for the public schools and not the "tuition" for the students who go there.
Vouchers are one of those things that I disagree with the "liberal agenda." I think if vouchers are run like Pell Grants then there is no problem with the separation of Church and State because state money is not going directly to religious institutions but it is the choice of those receiving the vouchers to go to whatever they school they choose. For instance you can use a Pell Grant to pay for UT Austin or Notre Dame even though one is a public state school while the other is a run by a religion. I also think that so far few things have proved successful in improving the overall state of public education. So at this point why not open them up to competition. Also since the state mandates that children must be educated and taxes people to pay for that education it seems to me unfair that those who send their kids to private school basically pay twice for their kids education while only benefitting from one payment. At the same time it is largely only the well off who have a choice in sending their kids to private schools if you're poor its public schools for your kids.
Exactly right. If people who want to send their kids to private schools get vouchers, people without children should get refunds. This is a stupid idea because all of us, whether we have children or not, or regardless of where we went to school , benefit from havinig a public education system. An educated populace is a public good, just like haviing roads, a military, etc.
There's no way vouchers will be like Pell Grants because that would require an increase in the budget. Also, private schools are small and there's no way you could take on all the students who could get accepted into them. So then the redirected property taxes that pay for vouchers will take away from the public schools. A rough example could be that say 1/20 of public school kids go to private schools on vouchers and to pay for those kids, you have to take 1/10 of the budget away from public schools.
My disagreement is along the lines of the property owner who doesn't have kids, yet pays property tax like everyone else. If we allow some kids (rich ones are the only ones who can AFFORD private school) to basically get a discount on their private school, then we should allow the childless homeowner to get a discount on something of equal value as well. I really liked the analogy of the public and private roads. Property taxes are to pay for the schools and that money should not be diverted. The people who want to go to private school still can, they just don't get a handout from the government to do so.
A few years back, I was at a house party in River Oaks. (IIIRC it had something to do with Rice Alumni College). The hostess of the party was an extreme Republican. Her big issue which she talked all night about was the then Republican push nationwide for vouchers. I was on my best behaviour that night, so I did not go toe to toe with the hostess. As it turns out, one Rice Alumn present was married to a woman who ran a small Catholic, parochial school. I ended up asking him what his wife thought on school vouchers, not knowing really how he would respond. It turns out that his wife hated the idea for a variety of reasons. Catholic schools in general prefer to have Catholic students, which may no longer be the case if middle America starts to flood private schools. Catholic schools are also running out of nuns and are having a hard time delivering the look-and-feel of Catholic schoolds of yesterday, which is a very important concern for Catholic parents who want their kids to have the same education that they had. Adding more students only makes this problem worse. Needless to say our hostess did not like the answer to my question that she heard. It shut her for about a minute until she went on about what a great governor GWB was at the time and what a great president he would make if he decided to run
how much are the vouchers to be If I cannot afford to pay 1500K a semester to send a kid to school . .. and the school costs 3000K but i can get a 1500K vouchers how does that help? Even if i want too? It will turn into a Segrationist system with artificial and arbitrary guidelines that will leave a bunch of kids on the outside looking in It really will only benefit the rich kids and it will make a plethora of 'charter' schools super rich [see the Mental Health Adult day care system a while ago] Rocket River it will be infested with corruption within 2 yrs why not just make all education private . . . which is what they want anyway
I have two issues with vouchers: 1. They don't really do the job intended. Those who tout them say that poorer kids will be able to afford private schools. Based on the programs I've seen, that just isn't true. Many of the suggested vouchers barely cover tuition. They don't help with transportation costs (most private schools don't have bus service), lunch money, costs of books and materials (many private schools make kids buy books), costs related to attending schools (uniforms, different apparel in general, field trip fees, etc), etc. All it really does is give middle and upper-middle class kids who often can afford private school already free tuition. 2. They are essentially a write-off of public education. This is the most frustrating thing. Instead of just improving the quality of public education, there is a sense we need to give parents the option of getting their kids out of the school system. Instead of taking that money and throwing it a people who either cannot afford these schools with vouchers or can without them, why not actually attempt to improve the quality of education within existing schools? BTW, in religious schools, religion is not an elective. It is a requirement. Take it from someone who went to a religious school from K-12. Religion class every semester. Prayers before school and at lunch (at a minimum). Chapel at least once per week. It goes on. There is no way to stop a religious school from "pushing" religion on its students. It is inherent to the institutions.
Funding of K-12 education was already screwed up by using local property taxes to fund local districts in this country.
I think it's a splendid idea. Govt. schools are a pathetic joke that don't teach kids the skills they need to become effective citizens. Everyone should have the same opportunity to attend the school of their choice, regardless of cost. How fair is it that I send my kids to a good Catholic school with rigid discipline and a challenging curriculum while inner city children from poor backgrounds get the bottom of the barrel in terms of an education? Don't they deserve the same opportunities? That's one thing that always frosted me about liberals on this subject. They whine and bleat about fairness, but when it comes to poor children's education, they're basically saying- "Since competition with private schools would put our teacher union buddies who work in the overfunded, wasteful, useless govt. schools out of work, we can't have that. Even if it means you get a substandard education." Competition only makes institutions stronger and having to compete with private schools for students will make govt. schools better. It's a crying shame the schooling in govt. schools that inner city children receive vs. suburban children in supposedly equal govt. schools. Govt. should not be in the business of education anyhow, especially not the Federal govt. We spend more money than ever on education and get......far less than before. And liberals whine about spending more "on our children!" Well, hoss, that money is being pissed down a rathole if you ask me.
QUESTION: What do you have against FIXING the Schools? Rather than the RUN AWAY from the problem solution? Rocket River
"Next in importance to Freedom and Justice is popular education, without which neither Freedom nor Justice can be permanently maintained." -- James Abram Garfield (1831-81), 20th US President, Republican
Good points Jeff, looks like your breakdown of the situation is so spot on, the only rebuttal will be insane rants instead of actual countering your points.
Wow a Garfield quote, can't say I ever thought I'd really see that... Charter Schools are nice. bama's right on competition and how much money is WASTED on public education. Charter schools seem like a viable answer. Also, parents have to much say these days, teachers can't discipline or run a class room for anything but standardized tests anymore. Education in this country is quite sad.
