Sure, but your comparisons makes it sound like a crazy knife wielder can wreck widescale havok upon the general public.
Thank you so much for posting the HIGHLY trained police officers. This is the guy you are calling when you dial 911. Well actually any federal agent is more highly trained than the local cops.
Why wonder? I bought a handgun about a year ago. It takes about an hour. You sign forms agreeing to a background check. There is a background check, conducted by a division within the FBI. They call back the seller, give permission, and the seller sells the gun.
But for a CHL holder it is the same concept. The seatbelt is used to protect you in a situation you do not want to be in. To the CHL holder, the gun is used to protect you in a situation you do not want to be in.
Background checks need to be tightened or the waiting period needs to increase if guns have to be sold to the average citizen in this country.
You regurgitate that same argument from those conservative websites ... If there was a CHL holder in that group? Did you ever think beyond what that would require? If I am not mistaken, the gunman from VT shot people from several separate classrooms, maybe 4 from one account I read. If there was a (one) CHL holder in that group, where would you like that person to be? In the 1st class, the last one? What happens if he was the 1st one shot? How do you guarantee there would be on CHL holder somewhere, everywhere, so he can magically intervene? When students sign up for class, do you require one to carry guns? If there isn't one available, I suppose you don't offer that course? Do you require the teachers to wear guns, would that be a requirement to be a teacher these days? What about high school, elementary school ... and many places more ... Maybe we should have someone with guns to protect us ? You know what, we already have that ... that person is called the police, except there are not enough of them ... because the environment we are in ... everytime something happens ... like the Virginia Tech incident ... for one gunman, you need dozens and dozens of police ... Hence there are not enough of them to keep peace somewhere else ... btw, Why do you think it requires so many professional police officers to handle one shooting incident .... yet it only requires one citizen with a gun like yourself to stop those criminals?
There is no reason for him to. Do you know anything about the background check system? (why do I even ask) If there is ANY doubt they put out a DELAY answer. This means the sale is denied pending further review. The fact this guy bought a gun was the failure of the counselors, doctors and our lack of community these days.
What are they going to learn additionally in a week? As far as I know, they're just checking criminal records. If you want to stall people, that's one thing, but that hasn't ever been shown to work.
then the CHL holder's concept is skewed. because a gun is inherently dangerous. it is designed to fire bullets which kill people. a seat belt is not inherently dangerous. wearing a seat belt doesn't put anyone else at risk. there is a gigantic difference that makes that metaphor extremely silly. you didn't need a license for your seatbelt...you need one to carry a handgun.
yeah its obvious he guaranteed it. You got him he guarenteed it!!!! We are just saying its possible (the exact word used in the text you quoted) and that VT took guns out of the hands of people wanting to carry them. We have a problem with the denial of rights.
It's too bad we are not still dealing with muskets- Thomas Jefferson, of Virginia: "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Proposed Virginia Constitution, 1776 "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms. . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." -- Jefferson's "Commonplace Book," 1774-1776, quoting from On Crimes and Punishment, by criminologist Cesare Beccaria, 1764 George Mason, of Virginia: "[W]hen the resolution of enslaving America was formed in Great Britain, the British Parliament was advised by an artful man, who was governor of Pennsylvania, to disarm the people; that it was the best and most effectual way to enslave them; but that they should not do it openly, but weaken them, and let them sink gradually.". . . I ask, who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers." -- Virginia's U.S. Constitution ratification convention, 1788 "That the People have a right to keep and bear Arms; that a well regulated Militia, composed of the Body of the People, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe Defence of a free state." -- Within Mason's declaration of "the essential and unalienable Rights of the People," -- later adopted by the Virginia ratification convention, 1788 Samuel Adams, of Massachusetts: "The said Constitution [shall] be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press, or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms." -- Massachusetts' U.S. Constitution ratification convention, 1788 William Grayson, of Virginia: "[A] string of amendments were presented to the lower House; these altogether respected personal liberty." -- Letter to Patrick Henry, June 12, 1789, referring to the introduction of what became the Bill of Rights Richard Henry Lee, of Virginia: "A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves . . . and include all men capable of bearing arms. . . To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms... The mind that aims at a select militia, must be influenced by a truly anti-republican principle." -- Additional Letters From The Federal Farmer, 1788 James Madison, of Virginia: The Constitution preserves "the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation. . . (where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." -- The Federalist, No. 46 Tench Coxe, of Pennsylvania: "The militia, who are in fact the effective part of the people at large, will render many troops quite unnecessary. They will form a powerful check upon the regular troops, and will generally be sufficient to over-awe them." -- An American Citizen, Oct. 21, 1787 "Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American . . . . The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." -- The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788 "As the military forces which must occasionally be raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the next article (of amendment) in their right to keep and bear their private arms." -- Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789 Noah Webster, of Pennsylvania: "Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power." -- An Examination of The Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, Philadelphia, 1787 Alexander Hamilton, of New York: "f circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude, that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their rights and those of their fellow citizens." -- The Federalist, No. 29 Thomas Paine, of Pennsylvania: "[A]rms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. . . Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them." -- Thoughts On Defensive War, 1775 Fisher Ames, of Massachusetts: "The rights of conscience, of bearing arms, of changing the government, are declared to be inherent in the people." -- Letter to F.R. Minoe, June 12, 1789 Elbridge Gerry, of Massachusetts: "What, sir, is the use of militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty. . . Whenever Government means to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise a standing army upon its ruins." -- Debate, U.S. House of Representatives, August 17, 1789 Patrick Henry, of Virginia: "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel." -- Virginia's U.S. Constitution ratification convention link
what would the doctors and counselors have done that would have prevented this guy from buying a gun?
MORE- What Our Founding Fathers Really Said About Guns "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." What did they really mean? What were they thinking?... Read on to learn what our founding fathers really said about the right to keep and bear arms. TO TAKE ARMS AGAINST THE BRITISH From "A Journal of the Times", calling the citizens of Boston to arm themselves in response to British abuses of power, 1769: "Instances of the licentious and outrageous behavior of the military conservators of the peace still multiply upon us, some of which are of such nature and have been carried to so great lengths as must serve fully to evince that a late vote of this town, calling upon the inhabitants to provide themselves with arms for their defense, was a measure as prudent as it was legal. It is a natural right which the people have reserved to themselves, confirmed by the [English] Bill of Rights, to keep arms for their own defense, and as Mr. Blackstone observes it is to be made use of when the sanctions of society and law are found insufficient to restrain the violence of oppression." ASSAULT RIFLES, COLONIAL STYLE George Mason's Fairfax County Militia Plan, 1775: "And we do each of us, for ourselves respectively, promise and engage to keep a good firelock in proper order, and to furnish ourselves as soon as possible with, and always keep by us, one pound of gunpowder, four pounds of lead, one dozen gunflints, and a pair of bullet moulds, with a cartouch box, or powder horn, and bag for balls." GIVE ME FLINTLOCKS OR GIVE ME DEATH Patrick Henry, 1775: "They tell us that we are weakâunable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Three million people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us." THOUGHTS ON DEFENSIVE WAR Thomas Paine, writing to religious pacifists in 1775: The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand, arms like laws discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. The balance of power is the scale of peace. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside. Horrid mischief would ensue were one half the world deprived of the use of them; the weak would become a prey to the strong." SOUND BITES FROM BEFORE AND AFTER THE REVOLUTION Samuel Adams: "Among the natural rights of the colonists are these: first, a right to life, secondly to liberty, thirdly to property; together with the right to defend them in the best manner they can." John Adams: "Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense." Thomas Jefferson, in an early draft of the Virginia constitution: "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms in his own lands." WE HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND HE IS US Patrick Henry: "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined. The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun." TREAD LIGHTLY Thomas Jefferson's advice to his 15 year-old nephew: "A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercise, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks." Noah Webster, 1787: "Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword, because the whole of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops." ON THE ROLE OF THE MILITIA James Madison, "The influence of the State and Federal Governments Compared, "46 Federalist New York Packet, January 29,1788: "Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, that could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it." James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434, 6-8-1789 "The right of the people to keep and bear...arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country..." Alexander Hamilton, "Concerning the Militia," 29 Federalist Daily Advertiser, January 10, 1788: "There is something so far fetched and so extravagant in the idea of danger to liberty from the militia that one is at a loss whether to treat it with gravity or raillery. Where, in the name of common sense, are our fears to end if we may not trust our sons, our brothers, our neighbors, our fellow citizens? What shadow of danger can there be from men who are daily mingling with the rest of their countrymen and who participate with them in the same feelings, sentiments, habits and interests? What reasonable cause of apprehension can be inferred from a power in the Union to prescribe regulations for the militia, and to command its services when necessary, while the particular states are to have the sole and exclusive appointment of the officers? If it were possible seriously to indulge a jealousy of the militia upon any conceivable establishment under the federal government, the circumstance of the officers being in the appointment of the states ought at once to extinguish it. There can be no doubt that this circumstance will always secure to them a preponderating influence over the militia." Alexander Hamilton speaking of standing armies in Federalist 29 "...but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude, that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in discipline and use of arms, who stand ready to defend their rights..." Richard Henry Lee, Additional Letters form the Federal Farmer, 1788: "Militias, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves and include all men capable of bearing arms. To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." Trench Coxe, writing as "the Pennsylvanian" in the Philadelphia Federal Gazette, 1788: "The power of the sword, say the minority of Pennsylvania, is in the hands of Congress. My friends and countrymen, it is not so, for the powers of the sword are in the hands of the yeomanry of America from 16 to 60. The militia of these free commonwealths, entitled and accustomed to their arms, when compared with any possible army, must be tremendous and irresistible. Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? It is feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom? Congress has no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American. The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." Thomas Jefferson "On every question of construction [of the Constitution] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed." Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, spoken during floor debate over the Second Amendment [ I Annals of Congress at 750 {August 17, 1789} "What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty.... Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins." George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 425-426 "I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for few public officials." Patrick Henry, 3 J. Elliot, "Debates in the Several State Conventions" 45, 2d ed. Philadelphia, 1836 "Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?" ANTECEDENTS Connecticut gun code of 1650: "All persons shall bear arms, and every male person shall have in continual readiness a good musket or other gun, fit for service." Article 3 of the West Virginia state constitution: "A person has the right to keep and bear arms for the defense of self, family, home and state, and for lawful hunting and recreational use." Virginia Declaration of Rights 13 (June 12, 1776), drafted by George Mason: "That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural and safe defense of a free state; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided as dangerous to liberty; and that, in all cases, the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power." A proposed amendment to the Federal Constitution, as passed by the Pennsylvania legislature: "That the people have a right to bear arms for the defense of themselves and their own states or the United States, or for the purpose of killing game; and no law shall be passed for disarming the people or any of them, unless for crimes committed, or real danger of public injury from individuals." ROUGH DRAFT An amendment to the Constitution, proposed by James Madison: "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, a well-armed and well-regulated militia being the best security of a free country; but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person." THE FINAL DRAFT The Second Amendment, as passed September 25, 1789: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." link
Have you ever been caught in one of those automatic seat belt systems? Seriously though, They are apples and oranges. While the metaphor may be flawed, the concept is the same.
You can't think of a comeback ? Why don't you go search those conversative websites and then come back and paste their canned answer.
Rhester these were great men who made great quotes in a totally different reality. That last quote is by Gerry BEFORE THE US HAD A STANDING ARMY. His argument was that we don't need a standing army...we should all just arm ourselves. I think that illustrates how antiquated these arguments are in this context. In the world we live in today.
i'm sorry...i just don't see it as the same. me wearing a seatbelt to protect myself does not place you or any other human at risk.
