I lived in Utah for 7 years while I was going to school. Obviously as a Rox fan I developed some venom for the hated Jazz during this time. My question is this: Jazz fans are quick to excuse their inability to win a championship in the '90s with the fact that MJ was too good. They are also quick to insist that Flopton and Karla are respectively the best at their respective positions (in history). Personally I would blame their losing the finals on not having a decent center and Malone's inability to play in the playoffs like he did in the playoffs. Am I a homer? Or are Jazz fans just more crazy than even I think they are?
Malone is a choker. Stockton was very pissed on Malone's Game 6 final minute T/O to Jordan when the Jazz were up 1. And not to mention Malone choked on FTs. You can only win if you dont choke.
I personally think they never won a ring because the basketball gods hate coaches that encourage dirty play and flopping.
"Ridiculously false?" It may not be clean-but, but I have a hard time seeing how both of them aren't in the argument. IMO as far as point guards go it's Stockton, Magic, Robertson in no particular order, while at PF you could argue for Malone, Duncan, Barkley... Not seeing how considering either of those guys is "ridiculous."
system basketball will never win a title. their coach doesn't believe in iso plays. this will forever be their problem. at the end of the game or the end of a quarter, half, whatever, the team needs to know where the ball is going. and the jazz never knew. they play to get the open shot. and they do almost every time. but while it teaches great basketball fundamentals, it doesn't teach balls, it doesn't teach heart, and it doesn't teach leadership. thats why those teams never won. and karla will forever be remembered as a chokester when the game was on the line. swirly and snaggletooth were great, but malone choked big time-in alot of playoff games. the jazz could've beaten the bulls. jazz fans will say they lost because michael jordan is "unbeatable." but we all know the truth. the jazz just choked.
Whatever. If you exclude all Jazz fans and took a poll of knowledgeable NBA fans and/or media, Stockton would get close to zero votes as the all-time best PG in NBA history. If you believe otherwise, you are free to be wrong. Of course Stockton ranks up there as an all-time great, but almost nobody outside of Utah would actually rank him #1 in history ahead of either Magic or the Big O. What really helps Stockton was his amazing longevity which puts him up near Kareem. A case could be made for Karl Malone. But like txppratt just said, the guy choked at some critical moments and some of us believe much of his success was predicated on playing so long with Stockton. If you excluded fans from Utah and San Antonio, the vote in favor of Tim Duncan over Malone would be significant. I admit a legit case could be made for Malone as #1 PF all-time, especially with his longevity. But he and TD have similar stats while one guy has 4 championships and the other has zero. As all-time great players in general, you can debate TD vs Hakeem for a long time while debating Malone vs Hakeem isn't really debatable.
What happened before Jordan made the last shot in Game 6 in 1998? Karl Malone was posted up on a iso on the left side of the basket. MJ snuck behind him on the baseline and stole the ball away. That, you know, is the rest of the story. And your comments on "system basketball" indict Adelman 10 times more than JVG, who iso'd the Rockets the death with Yao and Tracy while Adelman's offense is predicated on ball movement like Sloan's.
You are also free to be wrong. I don't understand why Stockton isn't appreciated more. The guy was phenomenal. There's never been a better pure point guard. Yes, Magic and Big O gave you more rebounding and were more dangerous 1-on-1 scorers, but Stockton was an embarrassingly rich man's Nash who actually played D. Heck, the guy could've been a big scorer, but he didn't need to be. And there IS something to be said for longevity, you know. I guess it's to be expected on a Rockets board.
My feelings about Stockton have nothing to do with being a Rockets fan. I never understood the hatred for the guy here, but like you said, it's a Rockets board. Stockton is not underappreciated by NBA fans in general. I'm just saying that only homer Jazz fans would argue he is the greatest PG in NBA history. That is nonsense. Yes he was phenomenal. Yes, he is an all-time who should be ranked way up high up on the NBA pedestal. Yes he's had a greater career than Nash. Duh! But he ain't Magic or Oscar. Don't go there and expect anyone to follow except Jazz homers.
I hate the Jazz and Karl Malone is my most hated player ever. BUT I believe that John Stockton was probably the best pure PG in NBA. On top of that, he is number 1 in steals in NBA history IIRC. That is just my opinion and Magic or O could be argued to be better, but it is not absurd to think Stockton #1. The biggest shame was Karl Malone getting MVPs over this guy
That didn't take long. Seriously though... I can't in good conscience argue for Stockton, Magic, or Oscar being "my #1 choice," because they were all fantastic but in different ways. They're all co-#1 as far as I'm concerned.
The Orlando Magic pretty much invalidated that argument. Besides, what kind of argument is that? The Rockets would be #1 in the West, but eight other teams are too good.
My top 4 PG's are O, Magic, Nash and Stockton in that order. As for Malone, he's the greatest dirty play in NBA history. He could dish, but not take-just ask Nachbar!
