As far as I'm concerned, you can take Rip (good scorer, but worse three-point shooter, not a better defender), Penny (too injury-prone, potential chemistry issues), Houston (good scorer, nice shot, but not a better defender, less explosive, more one-dimensional than Cat, totally overpaid), Mercer (puh-lease), Sprewell (too old, chemistry issues), Stackhouse (very good scorer, but had problems co-existing with another star (Iverson) before and is not a player that can lead a team anywhere) off that list of players I would prefer to have instead of Cat. PERHAPS Eddie Jones, but I think he is less of a clutch player. Better defender, though. People who I see on the same talent level as Cat, but who I would not want to trade for are Wally Sczerbiak (although his shooting % is very impressive, but one hears there are chemistry issues in Minnesota with him), Jason Terry and Bonzi Wells. So, from my perspective, the only better SGs than Cat are Ray Allen, Kobe, Carter, Finley, Iverson, McGrady. All those are max players, in my opinion (perhaps with the exception of Finley, who I would see as someone who should get a little bit less than the max). One cannot trade Mobley 1-for-1 for any of these people. He is getting A LOT less money than they do, but, imho, he is not half the player they are, but more than that. Not quite as good, but closer than people like Allan Houston. Thus, let me make a provocative statement: If you look at the price-for-performance ratio, Mobley is actually arguably the BEST SG in the league.
Jeff, I can buy that even though I would probably put Jones ahead of him also, but I'll buy it. My point is I don't think we have the functional talent to be serious players in the west. Francis is real good, Mobley is ok, thomas is avg and Griffin is a rookie, after that we have nothing really. Once Rice and Taylor comes back you can put them with Thomas as being ok players. I'm not saying make a trade just to make headlines, but If its a player that can instantly help you ie Lewis or Odom and you can get him, get him. Drafting another player that will take 3 or 4 yrs to develop might not be as wise as some will think. GM's around the league no matter how good the team is are always looking to improve their team. Even teams that are set with personell, but may need something extra still try to improve. Remember when the bulls got Brian Williams? The Bucks almost won the East and they went out and got Mason coming off a all star campaign because they knew their weakness and couldn't fix it internally. If we had the talent, we wouldn't have lost 15 in a row when Francis went down. McDyess hasn't played the whole yr and he was a all star and Denver didn't lose 15 games in a row. People always look to the Blazers and say they have too much talent, but get a good coach and they could have the Blazers in the Finals. Dunleavy just wasn't a good coach and Cheeks is a rookie coach. A team can never have too much talent just a coach that can't manage it.
Q, Reggie Miller, Jalen Rose, Bonzi Wells, Kerry Kittles, J. Richardson, E. Jones all deserve at least honorable mention. Jeff, this thread may be morphing into a Cuttino thread and warrent moving, but...if Cat has such value, do you think we could get a good frontcourt player for him? Would you do that - or do you prefer two shooters with limited d in the backcourt, and less opportunity for Griff? Why limit your focus to replacing 2 for 2? Why not exploit another teams apparent need for a 2 and address the Rockets needs with the inside game, ball movement, and help defense? Players like Jalen Rose, Lamar Odom, R. Lewis. Do you trade a hot gunning 2 for a bigger, stronger, passing 3? If you can get a decent 5, do you try? If Detroit can't keep Ben Wallace, do you want him? I don't like LaFrentz, but he's out there. These things come up, because other teams have issues, too. Personally, I would like to see some rebounding, some passing, some boxing out, someone who can clear a path for francis to fly in, someone who can stand tough against the drive inside, to support Steve and Griff, who I see as the legitimate future. My underlying assumption is that you can't just shoot your way to the title. Whatever your opinion, this is the sort of analysis that I believe makes for informative and entertaining fan discussion, in trade talk. Best wishes. p
1. Trading Cat, imo, would amount to a betrayal. He took less money to stay in Houston. You can't accept a home town discount for a player and then trade him. For one, I think it's just wrong. For two, it ruins your reputation for future such deals. 2. You mention less opportunity for Griffin as being part of the detriment of keeping cat. Then you mention 3 guys who all have as much offensive game as Cat. What gives? 3. Front court players are in demand right now. Generally speaking, you're not going to get equal value in trading a backcourt player. And that's not a non-sequitur. A player can be more valuable, and still have less trade value. The type of player just has to be more common. But subtracting said player might still lead to greater disadvantage. It's possible (probable) that you could get Lafrentz in exchange for Cuttino. Lafrentz might even be worth it. But, then again, we'd lose a lot of scoring there that I'm not sure we could replace easily. People seem to think that Houston has plenty of offense, but not enough defense. Well, besides Francis, who scores in our back-court? Umm.... Cat? Our front court is actually relatively crowded right now, in comparison. Cato (now), KT, Griff, and next year Taylor are all quality players who deserve minutes (on almost any team). There's even a chance Rice will break the rotation. Conversely, in the backcourt, we really only have Francis, Cat, and sometimes Moochie (who isn't as good as any said front court players).
Good post, Freak. I agree that we need to keep a core of players in place for a few years to win a championship. However, if you look at the history of the past twenty years or so in the NBA, each team that has won the title, with the exception of the Bad Boy Pistons, has had either the best player or the "co-best" player in the league for that year playing on their team: Lakers: Shaq Spurs: Duncan Bulls: Jordan Rockets: Olajawon Bulls: Jordan Pistons: the exception Lakers: Magic Celtics: Bird 76ers: Mo (plus Doc) Lakers: Kareem (plus Magic) The all-star teams, such as the pre 83 76ers and Portland, did not win championships. The question is, will Francis, Griffin, or our No. 1 pick this summer ever become the best or "co-best" player in the league? Will one of them ever reach the level of the players on the foregoing list? If not, then history would suggest that the Pistons would need to be our model. Of course, the Pistons played defense, so we have some personnel moves to make if that is going to be the model.
JBC -- I agree 100%. That's why I think we have to see if those two guys can become those players before we start making a bunch more changes. If they can't, we might need to think about trying to acquire guys who can get to that level.
Who says we don't have quality? Sometimes, immediate impact isn't what a team is looking for. Look at what we have: KT: NOT EVEN 2 million dollars. KT puts up starter numbers, and while being undersized in the West is VERY strong and quick, and I think can be the starter on the Knicks today. Don't fool yourselves. You may trade KT for Kurt Thomas. you know what? Kurt Thomas is a starter and a very good player. Defense, rebounding, and some offense. You know what? The Knicks would be ROBBING us BLIND. You know why? Because KT kicks Kurt Thomas' ASS all over the floor. How can you say that's NOT good trade bait? If he were playing against players closer to 6'8 and 6'9, rather than 6'10, 6'11, or 7'0, then he's be putting up even bigger numbers. KT is getting respect all over the league, we better show him some too. Walt Williams: Sure, he very much past his prime. But, he's still got his 3-pt shooting. His experience. Standup guy, plays with the flow of the game. Biggest bonus other than 3's? 5 Million in cap space next season. That's around the price of a starting C these days. Draft picks: 2 first rounders, 2 or 3 2nd rounders. Apparently we can't trade OUR first rounder, but we have Toronto's. We have 2 second rounders from Chicago, and possibly ours. teams can also always add FUTURE draft picks right? We can pick a player and trade right? Moochie Norris: Best backup PG in the league after Tim Hardaway maybe. Can help a lot of teams, is cluctch, and is an energy guy. Crowd favourite, is likely to fill at LEAST a couple of seats coz of his fro. Put it all together, what do you get? KT + Walt + Norris + 1 first rounder + 2 second rounders (Total approx=11M dollars) Now, that looks like an excellent package to me. Especially if my team is sinking under the cap, and I'm looking for more depth. (Miami, NY, Portland(maybe),Memphis,Golden State)
