Nope. It has nothing directly to do with the #3 pick, or Lamar Odom. Just thought I'd say that before I get flamed Kenny Thomas/Bryce Drew/about 2 million of trade exception/#25 pick (if Orlando gives it to us) or a conditional first round FOR Michael Olowakandi/#18 pick This is based on 2 assumptions: 1.) Mihm is available at #3 2.) Moiso is available at #9 This would do several things: First, the Clippers get 2 players who can start, at the PG, and at the PF, while giving up only 1, which they are not in absolute love with. The Clippers also, get this, SAVE cap space, yes, even more. They also effectively screw Chicago (and I promise you, many teams will want to do that, payback you may call it) by forcing them to draft Fizer (Martin/Swift go 1, 2), or go with Miles or Pryzbilla at #4. The Rockets meanwhile, get a big man, who's talented. This lets us platoon Cato/Kandi, which IMO, would be effective up front, along with Olajuwon, or do the thing everyone seems to want to do: trade Cato, and not have to take a center in return. The #18 pick is in good position IMO, it likely would give us a choice of a few of the following: DeShawn Stevenson, Olumide Oyededji, Quentin Richardson, Morris Peterson, Donnell Harvey, Ernest Brown, or Desmond Mason. I don't think all of them will be there, but likely Brown, Mason, and 1 out of Peterson, Stevenson, and Richardson. Oyededji IMO, if he falls past the Mavs, will be there. The Clippers can fill out their lineup card: Mihm Thomas Odom SG (they have 2 FAs....pull out one from a sign and trade, or if they get the pick, draft one at 25 if they get it, such as Corey Hightower, Jamal Crawford, Michael Redd, or JaRon Rush) they also can use Nesby, or Piatkowski) Drew the Rockets get another 7 footer, that is teachable, is a solid (8 rpg) rebounder, and would be a person that would want to be tutored by Hakeem. Moiso steps in at the PF, and you now have a pretty deep front court, with a lot of potential in Hakeem, Kandi, Cato, Moiso, and possibly another guy at 18. If you nabbed Mason at 18, I feel he could be the surprise of the draft, with his skills. He's another good defender, and he has that highflying athleticism, that would work with Francis. So what do you think of this? I personally don't feel something like this is too out of the question. LAC gets cheap talent, Houston gets more depth. ------------------ Rockets fans wanted at hoopsboards.com Draft Chat, NBA Chat, Team Chat, and more!
I like your deal. I think Cato/Kandy could handle the post for the next few years. Dream is awesome but we're about to wake up and find him gone. We may not keep him next year unless his health improves. I sure wish the Rox would get one of these high-school kids who would have been a lottery pick in 2-3 years with an extra #1 pick, though. KT and Drew will be missed but also replaced. ------------------ There are 3 kinds of people: those who can count and those who can't.
NIKE I have to compliment you on this one. I love well thought out Trade Proposal's like this. I think you are correct, LA would be fine with it as long as they can't successfully make a better trade. That is your one caveat. Vancouver might trade with them for Kandi. Plus, Orlando and Chicago might be able to pull off a better trade than us for Kandi. The one thing you mention that is in our favor is the trade exception. Any exception that we use in the trade would transfer to them (given that there are no BYC's in the mix). Also, I'd make the trade for sure. I just don't think it is the best trade Clippers will get.
but what does Vancouver have offer, other than their pick (#2, which isn't worth trading for Kandi), Reeves, who would never be taken by LAC, and Othella, who also has a long type of contract. At best, they'd offer LAC a chance to move up one spot (and be able to take Swift)....but leave them centerless. A deal with LAC would center around Othella, but you know Othella would likely want out of there just as fast (a la Kenny Anderson to Toronto, who then traded him to Boston, or Rony Seikaly). Would the Backstreet Boy (Drew) or KT really complain out loud? Vancouver's package would be like this: Othella Lopez #2 for Kandi #3 Vancouver would also have to throw some more in, and they lose their depth as it is, which is their other goal-to add depth. Of other note: The deal wouldn't give LAC a trade exception, but because they're under the cap, more caproom. It's the same thing pretty much though. (I think that's right) ------------------ Rockets fans wanted at hoopsboards.com Draft Chat, NBA Chat, Team Chat, and more!
Vancouver already has one lame center (Reeves) and wouldn't want another one (Olowokandi). Late last night I listened to Dick Versace on Vancouver sports talk (type CKNW at Yahoo to find station website, sports are on from midnight to 2:00 AM CT) and it sounds like Vancouver believes it can best fill its needs via the #2 pick. Versace said it would take a block buster deal to trade the pick and that teams have already been contacting him. Vancouver will take Martin, Swift, or Fizer at the #2. ------------------
It might be the best deal for the Clippers based on their most obvious needs: a) PF, b) PG and 3) save salary. What could Vancouver offer to them other than Othella Harrington? Even the Clippers aren't stupid enough to want "BIG QUANDRY REEVES". The biggest question in my mind is will Mihm be available at #3? Mihm would be available at #3 if I was drafting (no doubt about it I'd pick Martin & Swift #1 & #2 respectively). But you know how the draft favors centers. Looking at it from our end: C: Olajuwon, Cato, Candy PF: Massenburg, Rogers, Moiso SF: Williams, Bullard, Mason SG: Anderson, Mobley PG: Francis, Norris Somebody in the front court would have to be on IR (which hasn't generally been a problem for the Rockets in the past few years). SF position is still relatively weak. The only other question, is this the most expedicious use of our free agent exception this year? It certainly adds much needed depth to our front line (and the center position is difficult to have depth at in the NBA). Nice topic NIKEstrad!!! ------------------ [This message has been edited by Swami (edited May 22, 2000).]
Keep in mind a few things: -2 of Cato, Hakeem, and Kandi can be in the lineup at the same time, so it's not like a 3rd string center. -Moiso has enough range on his jumper to play a little SF -Massenburg and Rogers have been oft-injured, and Hakeem and Cato also have gone out for spells -We can go to 3 guard lineups with ease, and if we draft Mason, both Anderson and Mason are well above average defenders.....add in the fact that all of Cato, Moiso, Hakeem and Kandi, are good shot blockers, and the defense is much improved IMO. -on the exception, it wouldn't be all of it, probably not even half. If they threw in a minimum wage guy, that cuts it down even further. ------------------ Rockets fans wanted at hoopsboards.com Draft Chat, NBA Chat, Team Chat, and more!
heypartner, Any exception that we use in the trade would transfer to them (given that there are no BYC's in the mix). Don't forget that the Clippers are way under the cap, so they're not eligible for a trade exception. ------------------
Aelliott, I didn't know they were way under. But that makes it even a better trade for them, because it means more cap space as NIKE alluded to. Further cap space is more valuable than a trade exception. NIKE, Well, I promised myself I'd stay out of this trade talk. I just wanted to compliment you for a well thought out proposal. This is it for me. No more trade talk this summer other than to help Aelliott dispell impossible trades.
Resist the urge HP ....it's gonna drive you crazy. I'm gonna try to stay from delving to the center, but this was an idea I actually had a few weeks ago, and all the pieces seem to have fallen into place. It just seems to make lots of sense to me, from both sides. ------------------ Rockets fans wanted at hoopsboards.com Draft Chat, NBA Chat, Team Chat, and more!
partner -- I think fantasy trade talk is a pure waste of time as well, but like you I'm always willing to propose or entertain a realistic scenario (last off-season I was advocating us trading for Doug Christie, signing Ron Harper, Detlef Schrempf, and/or Ty Corbin). When I read the initial proposal in this thread, the thing that immediately popped into my mind was that KT looks like he could be a special player, and why would I want to give him up for Olowokandi, an underachiever for sure. I'm curious to know why you think that would be worth it. ------------------ "It's always funny until someone gets hurt...and then it's just hilarious." -Faith No More [This message has been edited by TheFreak (edited May 23, 2000).]
Just checked out last years stat for both Kandi and KT, and they are somewhat similar. Kandi gets about 6 more minutes per game and grabbed about 3 more boards and a couple more points. Basically the same, although KT's low (.399) shooting percentage worried me (although he did attempt 122 3's at a 26% rate). I think I would go through with this trade because they both have potential, but we also get the 18 pick, which we could use to maybe get an Etan Thomas (if he falls that far) or take a chance on Deshawn Stevenson, etc. The only reason I wouldnt like this trade is if there was definitely something more beneficial we could do with our trade exception. ------------------ Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things!
Further cap space is more valuable than a trade exception. heypartner, The problem is that the Clippers can't get any free agents to take their money. They're in a really tough spot, nobody wants to play there (even for more money). It's similar to Utah's situation with free agents, just for different reasons. ------------------
TheFreak, Here is my two cents worth on Kenny Thomas. He does have upside potential, I'll give you that. He is a GREAT PASSER with good court vision and floor awareness for a PF. He is a decent rebounder who knows how to use his body size and positioning. He is a strong enough man to man defender. He isn't a great switching defender because he ISN'T QUICK ENOUGH AND TALL ENOUGH AND DOESN'T HAVE A LONG WINGSPAN (something one can't work on to improve). He seems to have patience on the floor (meaning IMO he was picked upon as a rookie by the referees, but he kept his poise) and that too impressed me about him (witness Rasheed Wallace). At present, IMO he has almost zero offensive skills. He is too SHORT TO SHOOT OVER PEOPLE IN THE PAINT, and he doesn't yet have consistency with his outside jumpshot. The $64,000 dollar question to me is will he spend the time and effort necessary to improve substantially his outside shot, and will he hit the weight room hard enough to develop the the low body fat and high muscle mass needed to dominate the low post offensively (he already has nice footwork in the paint). But he must make up for his lack of height inside with muscle mass for positioning (like Othella did). I'm neither for nor against this trade proposal for "Krappy man", but I will say this an average NBA PF is much easier to find than an average NBA center. To illustrate my point, ask yourself this, if you had the first two picks in the NBA draft this year, and you were just drafting the best available player for a brand new NBA franchise would you select Kenyon Martin, Stromile Swift, Marcus Fizer or Chris Mihm? The only reason anyone even thinks about Mihm is because of the void of decent NBA centers period!!! Go back a year further, would you take Elton Brand, Steve Francis or whoever the best available center in the draft was. Personally, I agree that Kandy doesn't have the same potential that Kenny Thomas does, but which position is easier to replace? It isn't an easy answer. Regards! ------------------ [This message has been edited by Swami (edited May 23, 2000).]
NIKEstrad, You said you didn't want to get flamed in your first message, but here is post number 15 (for a well thought out topic)! The wierd thing is I don't know if I'd do the deal or not do the deal for the Rockets, but nonetheless, it is a thought provoking topic. ------------------
At present, IMO he has almost less than zero offensive skills. He is too SHORT TO SHOOT OVER PEOPLE IN THE PAINT, and he doesn't yet have consistency with his outside jumpshot. Swami, I gotta disagree with u here. I really wouldn't go as far as to say Kenny has less than zero offensive skills. In Fact, one of da things dat impressed me, was his offense. He has a dependable jump hook with BOTH hands, that I've barely ever seen him miss and he's got a great spin move that he does often. I remember one game against Denver, he chewed up Raef Lafrentz, then he roasted Antonio Mcdyess. I WILL AGREE and say that his jumper needs more consistency, but that's cuz all he takes is 3 pointers. I've seen him shoot from about 18 feet, and he'll be a lot more consistent if he quits shooting 3's. But then again, he WILL improve in da offseason, so his 3 pointer mite be fairly decent next season. If he CAN shoot da 3 pointer(which he can), that means he can shoot the mid range too. And we need a pf that can spread da floor out, dat can shoot long range, dat can mix it up and post up occasionally also. And KT is dat pf. MAIN THING: quit jacking 3's and I'm sure KT will have a good season next year. plus, i'm pretty sure he'll also bulk up... ------------------ treasurer of the moochie norris fan club
OK, well personally, if you tell me I'm starting a team, and my 2 choices are KT or Kandi, I'm taking Kandi. His potential is so much greater, and he allows more flexibility-teaming him and Cato at the same time, 1 on 1 matchups in practice, forcing Cato to play well, or be benched, etc. This year, we needed Cato more than he needed us. He was our only center. Kandi takes that label away from him. Also, note I mentioned that we'd assume Moiso was drafted. Moiso is a 6'10'' athletic, shot blocking PF, with decent shot range. His potential is absolutely sickening. They'd make a formidable trio. Now, say for example, we got my sleeper of the draft Desmond Mason at #18. He's got defense like Posey did (arguably the best non big man defender in the draft) he's got shot, oh yeah, he's also got a 40+ vertical, and is a senior. IMO, he's the exact player Rudy would want. Guards with defense are good to have (see: Shandon Anderson). At #25, let's say Michael Redd. So the trade is now complete at: Kenny Thomas/Bryce Drew/Michael Redd FOR Michael Olowakandi/Desmond Mason and here's what's different about the 2 lineups- Clippers lineup 1- Olowkandi Fizer (Swift, Martin go #1...Mihm is a useless pick) Odom Mason (at 18) NO PG!!!!!!! (well....#30, uh, Jamal Crawford would be wishful thinking) OR Mihm KT Odom Redd Drew The latter is obviously better. Rockets lineup 1- Cato Moiso/KT Walt Williams Anderson/Mobley/Redd Francis Rockets lineup 2- Cato/Kandi Moiso Walt Williams/Desmond Mason (swing) Anderson/Mobley Francis I think Mason over Redd is a major difference, Drew is useless, and Moiso is gonna be miles ahead of KT. I'm sure there would be plenty of "future considerations" involved, and I'd think making friends with the Clippers is a good thing. ------------------ Rockets fans wanted at hoopsboards.com Draft Chat, NBA Chat, Team Chat, and more!
Nike, Mason is not the best non-big man defender. He's a good defender, but not the best defender. That honor belongs to Pete Mickeal. Honestly, how many players do you know that force people to go lateral on defense? ------------------ Check out the new and improved Draftsource.net
