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Tour de France

Discussion in 'Other Sports' started by rimrocker, Jul 3, 2004.

  1. AroundTheWorld

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    Yeah, yeah, just keep rubbing it in :D.
     
  2. 111chase111

    111chase111 Member

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    That is GREAT! Actually while I like Jan Ullrich and would have been perfectly fine with him (or Tyler) winning the Tour this year I think he's one of sport's biggest dissapointments. According to everyone (including Lance) he could win the Tour if he really set his mind to it. For whatever reason he can't do what it takes in the off season to make it happen. Does he really think he's going to beat Lance because Lance shows up unprepared? It's a disservice to his fans, his sponsors and his team that he doesn't put everything into winning the tour (at least ONE season!).

    It's kind of sad because he could be so great.
     
  3. esse

    esse Member

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    SJC, are you in Germany or just from Germany?!

    If you are in Germany I have one question...do you ever sleep?!:confused: :D
     
  4. AroundTheWorld

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    I'm in Germany...well, I am actually staying up tonight because I'll meet with a girlfriend of mine in a little while and I'll take her to the airport for an early flight this morning...
     
  5. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Atomic Playboy
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    He probably hasn’t sleep in days ~ Germans are well known for their wild all night Amphetamine parties…

    ;)
     
  6. AroundTheWorld

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    Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr :mad: ;)
     
  7. esse

    esse Member

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    Yes, I've heard that too!:D
    [​IMG]
     
  8. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    Good heavens! That woke me up! :D
     
  9. daNasty

    daNasty Member

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    http://www.iht.com/articles/524790.html

    PARIS A book scheduled to be published this week in France accuses Lance Armstrong of using illegal performance-enhancing drugs before and during the first of his five successive victories in the Tour de France in 1999.
    .
    The book also charges that he lied to cover up a positive drug test during the first victory.
    .
    Titled "L.A. Confidentiel: Les secrets de Lance Armstrong," the book is first appearing in a 10-page extract in the issue of L'Express, a weekly magazine, that went on sale Sunday.
    .
    One of the two authors concedes that there is no smoking gun in the extract or in the full book to prove that Armstrong, a 32-year-old Texan, engaged in doping.
    .
    "It's all circumstantial evidence," David Walsh, an Irish sportswriter for The Sunday Times of London, said in a telephone interview from Portugal, where he is covering the Euro 2004 soccer tournament. His co-author is Pierre Ballester, a Frenchman who formerly reported for L'Equipe, the daily sports newspaper.
    .
    "We don't actually prove anything," Walsh said. "We just set out the facts and let the reader decide for himself who's telling the truth. But we do give names for every accusation."
    .
    Many of its charges are attributed to Emma O'Reilly, a 33-year-old Irish woman who was a masseuse for the U.S. Postal Service team for half a dozen years, including before and during the 1999 Tour, when she worked as Armstrong's personal masseuse.
    .
    At that point, he was making a comeback from testicular cancer, which struck him in 1996, spread to his brain and lungs and required months of chemotherapy to check. He returned to bicycle racing in 1998.
    .
    Among O'Reilly's charges are these:
    .
    In June 1999, during the Dauphine Libéré race, Armstrong told her that his hematocrit level - the relation of oxygen-bearing red corpuscles to white in his blood - was 41 percent, or nine below the legal maximum.
    .
    "Everybody in cycling knows you can't win with a level as low as 41 percent," she is quoted as having said. "What are you going to do?"
    .
    "He looked at me and said, 'Emma, you know what I'm going to do; I'm going to do what the others do.'" She added: "I knew exactly what he was going to do."
    .
    In July 1999, before the perfunctory medical examination that precedes each Tour de France, Armstrong asked her for makeup to cover bruises on his arm caused by injections. The authors say that the many legal injections of vitamins, iron and recuperative agents that riders receive are always administered in the buttocks; the upper arms, they contend, are better suited for such illegal substances as EPO, human growth hormone and steroids.
    .
    In May 1998, after the Tour of the Netherlands, Armstrong gave her a bag of empty syringe needles to dispose of.
    .
    In May 1999, during a training camp in the Pyrenees, she was sent to the team's headquarters in Spain, where Johan Bruyneel, the Postal Service team's director, gave her a container of about 24 pills that she delivered to Armstrong two days later in a parking lot in Nice, where he then lived.
    .
    In July 1999, during the Tour de France that he was easily leading, Armstrong had a positive finding for steroid use. "I already knew about the steroid because Lance had told me," she is quoted as having said.
    .
    "He said he had used a steroid before or during the Route du Sud the month before, and he thought it would be O.K. for the Tour. He thought the drug would be completely eliminated from his body."
    .
    To resolve the looming scandal, she continues, Armstrong and two officials of his team decided to attribute the steroid to a cream used to treat saddle sores. Since Armstrong had not listed such a cream or treatment on his obligatory medical form, the team's doctor, according to this account, filled out a predated prescription.
    .
    At a news conference during the Tour, Armstrong explained the appearance of the steroid as a result of his treatment for a saddle sore.
    .
    The storm passed. Afterward, O'Reilly is quoted as having said, Armstrong told her, "Now, Emma, you know enough to destroy me."
    .
    Asked for comment Monday, officials of the Postal Service team said they were preparing a reply to be issued later Monday.
    .
    Reporting from the weeklong Dauphine Libéré race, where Armstrong finished fourth on Sunday as he prepared for his attempt to win a sixth consecutive Tour de France, L'Equipe said Bruyneel replied "no comment" when asked about the book.
    .
    The extract in L'Express gives no indication why O'Reilly, who left the team a few years ago to get married, would speak now, especially since she starts her account with an anecdote about Armstrong's generosity and kindness toward her.
    .
    As she did in interviews at the time, she also cites the warm friendship between them.
    .
    She is not the only witness cited in the extract. Also mentioned are Stephen Swart, a former rider from New Zealand, who alleges that Armstrong paid him $50,000 to allow the Texan to win a series of races in 1993 in the United States with an overall prize of $1 million.
    .
    Kathy LeMond, the wife of the American rider who won the Tour de France three times, is also quoted at length about threats that Armstrong allegedly made to him because he had spread doubts about Armstrong's victories in the Tour.
    .
    International Herald Tribune
    PARIS A book scheduled to be published this week in France accuses Lance Armstrong of using illegal performance-enhancing drugs before and during the first of his five successive victories in the Tour de France in 1999.
    .
    The book also charges that he lied to cover up a positive drug test during the first victory.
    .
    Titled "L.A. Confidentiel: Les secrets de Lance Armstrong," the book is first appearing in a 10-page extract in the issue of L'Express, a weekly magazine, that went on sale Sunday.
    .
    One of the two authors concedes that there is no smoking gun in the extract or in the full book to prove that Armstrong, a 32-year-old Texan, engaged in doping.
    .
    "It's all circumstantial evidence," David Walsh, an Irish sportswriter for The Sunday Times of London, said in a telephone interview from Portugal, where he is covering the Euro 2004 soccer tournament. His co-author is Pierre Ballester, a Frenchman who formerly reported for L'Equipe, the daily sports newspaper.
    .
    "We don't actually prove anything," Walsh said. "We just set out the facts and let the reader decide for himself who's telling the truth. But we do give names for every accusation."
    .
    Many of its charges are attributed to Emma O'Reilly, a 33-year-old Irish woman who was a masseuse for the U.S. Postal Service team for half a dozen years, including before and during the 1999 Tour, when she worked as Armstrong's personal masseuse.
    .
    At that point, he was making a comeback from testicular cancer, which struck him in 1996, spread to his brain and lungs and required months of chemotherapy to check. He returned to bicycle racing in 1998.
    .
    Among O'Reilly's charges are these:
    .
    In June 1999, during the Dauphine Libéré race, Armstrong told her that his hematocrit level - the relation of oxygen-bearing red corpuscles to white in his blood - was 41 percent, or nine below the legal maximum.
    .
    "Everybody in cycling knows you can't win with a level as low as 41 percent," she is quoted as having said. "What are you going to do?"
    .
    "He looked at me and said, 'Emma, you know what I'm going to do; I'm going to do what the others do.'" She added: "I knew exactly what he was going to do."
    .
    In July 1999, before the perfunctory medical examination that precedes each Tour de France, Armstrong asked her for makeup to cover bruises on his arm caused by injections. The authors say that the many legal injections of vitamins, iron and recuperative agents that riders receive are always administered in the buttocks; the upper arms, they contend, are better suited for such illegal substances as EPO, human growth hormone and steroids.
    .
    In May 1998, after the Tour of the Netherlands, Armstrong gave her a bag of empty syringe needles to dispose of.
    .
    In May 1999, during a training camp in the Pyrenees, she was sent to the team's headquarters in Spain, where Johan Bruyneel, the Postal Service team's director, gave her a container of about 24 pills that she delivered to Armstrong two days later in a parking lot in Nice, where he then lived.
    .
    In July 1999, during the Tour de France that he was easily leading, Armstrong had a positive finding for steroid use. "I already knew about the steroid because Lance had told me," she is quoted as having said.
    .
    "He said he had used a steroid before or during the Route du Sud the month before, and he thought it would be O.K. for the Tour. He thought the drug would be completely eliminated from his body."
    .
    To resolve the looming scandal, she continues, Armstrong and two officials of his team decided to attribute the steroid to a cream used to treat saddle sores. Since Armstrong had not listed such a cream or treatment on his obligatory medical form, the team's doctor, according to this account, filled out a predated prescription.
    .
    At a news conference during the Tour, Armstrong explained the appearance of the steroid as a result of his treatment for a saddle sore.
    .
    The storm passed. Afterward, O'Reilly is quoted as having said, Armstrong told her, "Now, Emma, you know enough to destroy me."
    .
    Asked for comment Monday, officials of the Postal Service team said they were preparing a reply to be issued later Monday.
    .
    Reporting from the weeklong Dauphine Libéré race, where Armstrong finished fourth on Sunday as he prepared for his attempt to win a sixth consecutive Tour de France, L'Equipe said Bruyneel replied "no comment" when asked about the book.
    .
    The extract in L'Express gives no indication why O'Reilly, who left the team a few years ago to get married, would speak now, especially since she starts her account with an anecdote about Armstrong's generosity and kindness toward her.
    .
    As she did in interviews at the time, she also cites the warm friendship between them.
    .
    She is not the only witness cited in the extract. Also mentioned are Stephen Swart, a former rider from New Zealand, who alleges that Armstrong paid him $50,000 to allow the Texan to win a series of races in 1993 in the United States with an overall prize of $1 million.
    .
    Kathy LeMond, the wife of the American rider who won the Tour de France three times, is also quoted at length about threats that Armstrong allegedly made to him because he had spread doubts about Armstrong's victories in the Tour.
    .
    International Herald Tribune
    PARIS A book scheduled to be published this week in France accuses Lance Armstrong of using illegal performance-enhancing drugs before and during the first of his five successive victories in the Tour de France in 1999.
    .
    The book also charges that he lied to cover up a positive drug test during the first victory.
    .
    Titled "L.A. Confidentiel: Les secrets de Lance Armstrong," the book is first appearing in a 10-page extract in the issue of L'Express, a weekly magazine, that went on sale Sunday.
    .
    One of the two authors concedes that there is no smoking gun in the extract or in the full book to prove that Armstrong, a 32-year-old Texan, engaged in doping.
    .
    "It's all circumstantial evidence," David Walsh, an Irish sportswriter for The Sunday Times of London, said in a telephone interview from Portugal, where he is covering the Euro 2004 soccer tournament. His co-author is Pierre Ballester, a Frenchman who formerly reported for L'Equipe, the daily sports newspaper.
    .
    "We don't actually prove anything," Walsh said. "We just set out the facts and let the reader decide for himself who's telling the truth. But we do give names for every accusation."
    .
    Many of its charges are attributed to Emma O'Reilly, a 33-year-old Irish woman who was a masseuse for the U.S. Postal Service team for half a dozen years, including before and during the 1999 Tour, when she worked as Armstrong's personal masseuse.
    .
    At that point, he was making a comeback from testicular cancer, which struck him in 1996, spread to his brain and lungs and required months of chemotherapy to check. He returned to bicycle racing in 1998.
    .
    Among O'Reilly's charges are these:
    .
    In June 1999, during the Dauphine Libéré race, Armstrong told her that his hematocrit level - the relation of oxygen-bearing red corpuscles to white in his blood - was 41 percent, or nine below the legal maximum.
    .
    "Everybody in cycling knows you can't win with a level as low as 41 percent," she is quoted as having said. "What are you going to do?"
    .
    "He looked at me and said, 'Emma, you know what I'm going to do; I'm going to do what the others do.'" She added: "I knew exactly what he was going to do."
    .
    In July 1999, before the perfunctory medical examination that precedes each Tour de France, Armstrong asked her for makeup to cover bruises on his arm caused by injections. The authors say that the many legal injections of vitamins, iron and recuperative agents that riders receive are always administered in the buttocks; the upper arms, they contend, are better suited for such illegal substances as EPO, human growth hormone and steroids.
    .
    In May 1998, after the Tour of the Netherlands, Armstrong gave her a bag of empty syringe needles to dispose of.
    .
    In May 1999, during a training camp in the Pyrenees, she was sent to the team's headquarters in Spain, where Johan Bruyneel, the Postal Service team's director, gave her a container of about 24 pills that she delivered to Armstrong two days later in a parking lot in Nice, where he then lived.
    .
    In July 1999, during the Tour de France that he was easily leading, Armstrong had a positive finding for steroid use. "I already knew about the steroid because Lance had told me," she is quoted as having said.
    .
    "He said he had used a steroid before or during the Route du Sud the month before, and he thought it would be O.K. for the Tour. He thought the drug would be completely eliminated from his body."
    .
    To resolve the looming scandal, she continues, Armstrong and two officials of his team decided to attribute the steroid to a cream used to treat saddle sores. Since Armstrong had not listed such a cream or treatment on his obligatory medical form, the team's doctor, according to this account, filled out a predated prescription.
    .
    At a news conference during the Tour, Armstrong explained the appearance of the steroid as a result of his treatment for a saddle sore.
    .
    The storm passed. Afterward, O'Reilly is quoted as having said, Armstrong told her, "Now, Emma, you know enough to destroy me."
    .
    Asked for comment Monday, officials of the Postal Service team said they were preparing a reply to be issued later Monday.
    .
    Reporting from the weeklong Dauphine Libéré race, where Armstrong finished fourth on Sunday as he prepared for his attempt to win a sixth consecutive Tour de France, L'Equipe said Bruyneel replied "no comment" when asked about the book.
    .
    The extract in L'Express gives no indication why O'Reilly, who left the team a few years ago to get married, would speak now, especially since she starts her account with an anecdote about Armstrong's generosity and kindness toward her.
    .
    As she did in interviews at the time, she also cites the warm friendship between them.
    .
    She is not the only witness cited in the extract. Also mentioned are Stephen Swart, a former rider from New Zealand, who alleges that Armstrong paid him $50,000 to allow the Texan to win a series of races in 1993 in the United States with an overall prize of $1 million.
    .
    Kathy LeMond, the wife of the American rider who won the Tour de France three times, is also quoted at length about threats that Armstrong allegedly made to him because he had spread doubts about Armstrong's victories in the Tour.
    .
    International Herald Tribune
     
  10. daNasty

    daNasty Member

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    http://www.suntimes.com/output/telander/cst-spt-rick27.html


    Riding out the ugly steroid storm

    June 27, 2004

    BY RICK TELANDER SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST Advertisement






    The French press hates Lance Armstrong. All this stuff about how the five-time Tour de France winner's success is ''not about the bike'' -- well, the French folks just say, Oui, it's about chemistry, right, Lance?



    As Scott Price wrote in the current Sports Illustrated cover story about Armstrong: ''In Europe, unlike in America, Armstrong's postcancer accomplishments stirred skepticism in the press ... Lance, a sporting miracle? ... Whenever a European journalist says, 'Saint Lance,' it is with a sneer.''

    In a soon-to-be-published book titled L.A. Confidential: The Secrets of Lance Armstrong, by David Walsh, a veteran cycling reporter for the Sunday Times of London, and Pierre Ballester, a French freelance journalist, Armstrong gets skewered as an EPO doper.

    EPO is the short name for erythropoietin, a banned substance that helps the body produce a glut of oxygen-carrying red blood cells.

    EPO has been the illicit drug of choice for long-distance athletes for some time because it basically loads the human engine with extra fuel.

    The stuff is vital for anemia patients and, ironically, some cancer victims. Indeed, Armstrong never has denied using EPO in 1996 and 1997, when he wasn't competing in brutal bicycle road races.

    His competition back then was a tad rougher: testicular cancer that had spread to his upper body and brain.

    When asked recently if he ever had used illegal drugs to perform better in cycling, Armstrong said, ''For the millionth time, I don't do that.''

    The upshot of all this is that the greatest bicycle rider in the world is very, very ticked off.

    Remember, this is not simply about a fellow who might make history with an unprecedented sixth Tour victory. It is about a Texas jock who just happens to make $16 million a year at his craft.

    Armstrong is sick and tired of the doping rumors and unsubstantiated accusations and even has attempted to stop the publication of L.A. Confidential.

    The S.I. cover line pretty much nails the theme: ''BRING IT ON: Lance Armstrong is ready to win his sixth Tour de France. And he's angry.''

    It's funny how that headline works -- with a few changes -- for Barry Bonds.

    The San Francisco Giants slugger, arguably the greatest baseball player in history, is well on his way to breaking Hank Aaron's career home-run record.

    But his affiliation with scandal-ridden BALCO labs and indicted personal trainer and friend Greg Anderson, who has charged with steroid distribution, have made Bonds a target for the same kind of skeptics who don't buy into Armstrong's mom-and-apple-pie cycling defense.

    On Thursday, the recent grand-jury testimony of 100-meter world-record holder Tim Montgomery, who allegedly admitted under oath to using performance-enhancing drugs, somehow was released to the San Francisco Chronicle.

    In excerpts, Montgomery stated that he used human growth hormone and an undetectable steroid provided by BALCO and that BALCO founder Victor Conte told him he had provided performance-enhancing drugs for Bonds, as well.

    Told of this, Bonds went nuts.

    ''I ain't never met Tim Montgomery. I don't know Tim Montgomery. I've never seen the dude in my life,'' Bonds said.

    He then threatened to sue anybody making any accusations against him.

    ''They're going to talk to my attorney ... I guarantee that -- in a lawsuit,'' Bonds said."See you in court, brother.''

    All that is fine.

    And Bonds' and Armstrong's anger is justified if people are making up tales about them based on innuendo, hearsay or jealousy.

    But I can tell you what the biggest problem is here.

    And it includes reigning world sprint queen, Marion Jones of the United States, too. She also has had friends and competitors and personal coaches drop headlong into the drug cesspool. And the father of her year-old son just happens to be ... Tim Montgomery.

    Though the public sees the deceptions and fraud that swirls around the universe of elite sport, this egomaniacal trio doesn't seem to understand why the filth in their sports taints them, too.

    As the saying goes, you are only as strong as your weakest link.

    And there are broken links everywhere.

    Simply getting angry about unfairness to you isn't enough.

    Maybe Armstrong, Bonds and Jones are, indeed, clean.

    But that's no reason for them to think we're idiots.

    Or that we aren't mad as hell, too.
     
  11. Pole

    Pole Houston Rockets--Tilman Fertitta's latest mess.

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    Armstrong is about to claim his rightful jersey.
     
  12. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Member

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    What is it with these stupid articles? I don't care about some dumb French book accusing Lance of doing things 4 years ago. Is that the best they can come up with? Get me a more legitimate source and then we'll talk about it.
     
  13. Pole

    Pole Houston Rockets--Tilman Fertitta's latest mess.

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    And the yellow is Lance's.
     
  14. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    If something like 90% of all cyclists cheat and use EPO or some other PE drug as is believed, does it actually matter if Lance cheats too?

    I don't have a problem with it if everybody else does it. They should just change the rules; if these guys want to risk their health for short term glory then go for it.
     
  15. AroundTheWorld

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    (Just trying to answer this question as a general remark, not specifically related to Armstrong...)

    That's a fair question. I've thought about it for a while, but then decided that just because a lot of people or even the majority do something wrong, it still doesn't mean it should be allowed.

    Some seem to be more advanced than others when it comes to enhancing their performance via drugs...
     
  16. PhiSlammaJamma

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    How can 90% be using if nobody is testing positive?

    But if they were, no, it doesn't make it right. The law is there for a reason. Laws sometimes protect small groups and minorities. That's why they exist.
     
  17. rrj_gamz

    rrj_gamz Member

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    Lance is just an amazing athlete...just consider making up 9 freakin' minutes in the mountain stage...Un-freakin'-believable...

    The french suck azz...
     
  18. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    This guy is freaking unreal. I don't know that I've ever been so impressed with the body of work of any athlete.
     
  19. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Atomic Playboy
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    [​IMG]
     
  20. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    Yes, Armstrong does it again... he owns the mountains.

    Armstrong Retakes Overall Lead at Tour de France


    By John Leicester
    Associated Press
    Tuesday, July 20, 2004; 12:29 PM


    VILLARD-DE-LANS, France -- Lance Armstrong retook the overall lead in the Tour de France on Tuesday, outsprinting his top two challengers to win the first stage in the Alps and close in on a record sixth straight title.

    Armstrong moved past Ivan Basso and 1997 Tour champion Jan Ullrich in the curves before the closing stretch to claim his second stage victory in the 2004 Tour and the 18th of his illustrious career. He also has won two team time trials.

    "There's something special in winning in a sprint," Armstrong said. "To win in a sprint for me is much more intense than being alone."

    The Texan earned his 61st yellow jersey as overall leader, third-most in Tour history. Armstrong also wore yellow for one day after the team time trial July 7, but he ceded the lead to Thomas Voeckler the next day.

    "It's exciting to take the yellow jersey, even if it's number 61 or however many. It's still a thrill," Armstrong said.

    Voeckler held on until Tuesday, having bravely and narrowly defended his advantage in the Pyrenees. Armstrong entered those mountains trailing by nine minutes and whittled that down to 22 seconds heading to the Alps.

    Five-time Tour runner-up Ullrich's bid to dethrone Armstrong was hurt in the Pyrenees, but Basso appeared to still have a shot after two weeks of punishing racing.

    Neither Ullrich nor Basso, though, had the strength to stay with Armstrong at the end of Tuesday's 112-mile ride from Valreas to Villard-de-Lans, including seven climbs, in heat topping 85 degrees.


    Having pulled ahead of the rest of the riders, that trio -- plus Ullrich's teammate Andreas Kloden -- jockeyed for an edge during the closing yards, trading leads of a bicycle length or so.

    In the end, Armstrong had a little extra, flashing past Basso on a late turn and pumping his legs to carry himself across the finish line first, pumping his fists.

    Basso was credited with the same finishing time, with Ullrich three seconds behind, and Kloden six seconds back in fourth place.

    Armstrong earned bonus seconds for winning the stage, extending his lead on second-place Basso to 1 minute, 25 seconds.
    If he can hold that advantage for two more days in the Alps and in a time trial on Saturday, Armstrong will pedal into the history books when the three-week cycling marathon ends on the crowd-packed Champs-Elysees in Paris on Sunday.

    Armstrong said his team manager, Johan Bruyneel, was yelling into his radio-linked earpiece that he had to beat Basso.

    "Johan was screaming in my ear that I had to win because of the time bonuses," Armstrong said. "Every second counts."


    Kloden is third overall, 3:22 off Armstrong's pace. Voeckler dropped to eighth, 9:28 behind Armstrong.

    As overall leader, Armstrong will get the privilege of starting last for Wednesday's time trial. For the first time, the race against the clock is on the brutal ascent to the L'Alpe d'Huez ski station, a Mecca of cycling with 21 rhythm-destroying hairpin bends.

    Starting last is the equivalent of pole position, allowing Armstrong to see how other riders -- notably Basso -- fare on the ascent.


    "There was still a part of me that wanted to ride a legendary mountain like L'Alpe d'Huez in the yellow jersey," Armstrong said, who added that he expects Basso will be "tough to beat" on the ascent. But "I have the good fortune of starting behind him, so I'll know his time splits all the way up, which is a big advantage," Armstrong said.

    Fans have been camping out for days along the Alpine climb. The town, which usually has a population of 1,500 people, is expecting up to 1 million to converge on the mountain for the cycling spectacle.



    This would totally rock. Damn, I'd like to be there. I had to laugh at the reference to 85 degrees being "hot." Here in Austin, at this time of year, if it were 85 during the day, we'd think we were in heaven! That's nothing to Lance.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A63760-2004Jul20.html
     

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