Require EVERYONE to contribute from their statistical best starters (Fizer, Crawford, Mash, Hughes and Bagaric for example) with a triumvirate of BGM, Heath and Cat casting yeah or nay votes on the controversial ones. AND Restrict everyone who took on a team anytime after the season started this year to just one round of the common draft except for 2nd round picks they acquired of teams that participated last season. Any players that are left over would then be available to just the teams that are starting out (in essence, a third round for the new teams). This will let the bad teams get incrementally better, but not at the cost of the veteran teams because it allows them the best chance at hanging onto what their year(s) in the league earned them. It's messy, it will mess up a lot of well laid plans (mine), but it will work. Nothing will be 100%, but lets stop arguing. ------------------
I think it is admireble that you volunteer to give up players that you do not have to give up while others try their best to give less than they are supposed too. I just hope everyone can see that there has never been the intention to keep teams for trading up like GB and CK did. You need to realize if they had not done so they still would have submitted the guys they are submitting today. (It means no problem for the draft pool when teams trade up) It is however a problem if teams trade down to reduce the price they pay to the draft or if they try to hide better players away by just starting another lesser player to qulify him. That is why Cat said there is no set numbers to qualify as a starter, and that he would say no to everybody he felt tried to work the rules. Let's face it. It is Cat's decision - lets just live with his ruling and try to see it from his perspective. I just hope he lives up to what he said and lets no one try to get one past the rules to lessen the draft pool. We also need to make it clearer next year, have a thread where we state our intension of who to give up from the start, and as soon as we change our minds give our new intentions so we can stop problems before they start. We also should have a deadline on trades saying that everyone traded after that deadline can not be submitted to the draft. We also should have firm rules - and for each trade that goes down that someone feel should change what someone gives up to the pool should speak up asap. This way we can cancel out a trade if someone thought that the one they traded for should or shouldn't have consequenses for the pool. We also should set examples of what is considered legal and not. I also think that these rules should not hinder people from trading up in saying now you have to submit your new guy. As long as that GM still can putup the player he already had the draftpool is not hurting. Now for the Aaron McKie uproar. I had no intention of putting Aaron McKie into the draft. I'm just saying that I can put him in under the same precedent John Stark and Cedric Ceballos is setting if they get to go. McKie is my best SG, so I could have started him tomake him eligeble (give him enough starts) but I felt I would do better moving over one of my point guards in Payton the same way as BGM felt he was better of moving his SF Tony Kukoc over to play SG. Both Starks and McKie can be considered the best shooting guard for both teams, and with the precedent of we can give a lesser guy up in Ceballos over Marshall then there should be no problems. I think there is a problem - VOR shouldnt be allowed to give up a lesser player draft. No one should be allowed to do that - and certainly not the best team in this league. I will not give up Aaron McKie regardless of what The Cat decides about Cedric Ceballos. I will give give up Marcus Camby and take the challenge it is to keep on improving to close the gap to the top. My wish is that VOR could take the challenge and not make The Cat has to decide. It is not like he wont be the best team again for giving up Marshall. He will be weaker with Ceballos - but he has a great team regardless and would still be favorite to get the best record in the league, his team will just be a bit worse of at one of his starting position, and a little less deeper, but that is a problem all the top teams face with giving up their players. Nothing a couple of trades and some good GM'ing can't fix. VOR take the challenge. When you put up Ceb and Wright as your starters you said that these where the guys you would most likely submit. With the controversy you see we have over this say that this is no big deal, I'll just submit Marshall, and I will still show you all that I can overcome this. It's not like you think there is so much difference in the production from Marshall to Ceballos like the rest of us. Lets just fix this. ------------------ The CC.net NBA Sim Board/Homepage
I wouldn't mind submitting everyone's draft submissions to a 3 person panel. But of course those guys couldn't judge their own picks. I'm afraid I don't understand anything GB said after the AND. ------------------ I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip that I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis.
how to reply to someone without the facts.... i know, i will educate you. first of all I would like to tell you that Marshall is not better than ceballos. when I was in the chat on friday I told everyone what ceballos was getting asd a starter. after doing this everyone was pretty much cool with the idea. but there is a problem with the stats i gave out. I said Ceb was getting 17 pts and 4 boards. well what can I cay, i forgot the actual numbers. it was 17 pts and 6.3 boards in only 30.2 mins. now you say why dont I take the challange?? well its simple. ceballos is a scorer, marshall is a rebounder. if you look at my team you will note that I love rebounders. I also have one of the top 3 scorers in the league. so its not like i need a scorer as much. so the deal is that I PREFER to have a rebounder over a scorer. if 17/6.3 in 30 mins is worse than 14/10 in 36 mins, than there is no wonder to me why i have the best team in the league. my any rules layed out, by every and all meanings of the word starter, cedric ceballos is exactly that, a starter. i will not take the pepsi challange, i will follow the rules and give up 2 of my starters. Lorenzen wright and cedric ceballos. 2 of the best players going into the draft peace ------------------ Hanta-Force Paintball www.hanta-force.com
It's just a game. If the majority thinks you should give up Marshall, then you should give up Marshall. The purpose of this whole 'resubmitting players back into the draft' is to improve the crappy teams. If the crappy team owners would prefer Marshall over Ceballos, then by golly, you should put Marshall into the draft. ------------------ All hail Fadeaway's Cyberfish -- your 2000-2001 BobFinn* Fantasy Basketball League Champions!
VOR, I was okay with you putting cedric in the draft, but when I read your posts on the subject, I find myself thinking WTF. IF you want to put cedric in the draft, fine. But don't blow smoke up my ass trying to convince me he is as good as Marshall - I don't care what your stats say. Why don't you just admitt that you want to keep marshall because he is better. sweet cheeks! ------------------ I am an invisible man.
I'm sorry VOR I do not know the facts. I still do not. What I was told in the chat was that Ceballos gave 17/4 and Marshall gave 12/8. I said - ok - that is simular numbers, although I still felt I liked Marshall more than Ceballos for the same reason you do. The rebounds. I later found in a thread that Marshall in fact was giving 14/10/2 in 30 minutes as a starter and that changed my view, but I still say if The Cat say you can put up Ceballos I will have no problem with it. Absolutly none. But you are in your own words saying now that you liked more what Marshall brought to the table than what Ceballos did, and I suggest that you starting Ceballos more than you started Marshall can be evidence that you try to pull one out of your sleeve. THey both played simular minutes starting (Marshall had 30 minutes in the thread I found his stats not 36). What The Cat needs to decide is if Ceballos can be said to create simular production as Marshall. Marshall: 30 min - 14 pts, 10 rebs, 2 asst Ceballos: 30 min - 17 pts, 6 rebs Me and others say he did not. You and others say that is the case/can be said to be simular. What we all have to agree is whatever The Cat decides goes, he even has all the numbers to make the most educated decision. We then will have to make everything better for next season with people stating early who they think they will release and agree about som rules with examples for what goes for next season. Maybe even having a trade deadline in regards to who we can submit to the draft. ------------------ The CC.net NBA Sim Board/Homepage
KBM, thats not smoke I have been in this league since its inception. I have several times made suggestions that would bring about rules to in a controlled manner create parity in this league. I was pointing out the flaws of the common draft L:AST off season. I very well know the rules of this sim, and as a GM it is my right or whim to keep whatever player i prefer. as long as I provide a "starter quality player to the common draft. i dont need scoring because I aquired malone in the pre season. I also have finley who scores 20+ so all I ask out of my sf is respectable scoring. marshall provides that. but I discovered after starting Ceb that he was a better fit for my team. hell he scores 17 a game, thats pretty damn good if you concider that he is on a team with two 20 pt scorers. he also gets plenty of boards for me. 6.2/ night is probably the 2nd or 3rd best rebounding SF in the league. I love this guy as a starter, but i feel that next season i wont need as much scoring. I plan on starting wang. who seems to have good scoring potential. so if i get the points from my center i can have my SF get the boards, and my center score. and finally, i shouldnt have to explain my strategies, no GM has to state their intentions when stasrting a player. it is my right to privacy. if i prefer a rebounder over a scorer than that is my perogative. on that note, explain who is better mobley, dickerson or shandon anderson. who is the best. take a poll of this BBS and you will get mixed reviews. if CD, or rudy had to pick one of them to put into our common draft who would be allowed???(assumoing all 3 weere on the rocks at the same time, and the rockets were as messed up as the rules in our fantesy game) its a matter of opinion of who is better. if you ask me, Cuttino is the best player in the league. he is deffinately better than francais. jure i might play favorites cus i went to URI with Cat, but if i were rudy i would trade francais before Cat. id cat went to toronto, i would be on the toronto fan BBS right now. so there is no smoke. I prefer Marshall, but I know Ceballos is fair, I also know that they have comparable stats, so it is a mute point. PEACE ------------------ Hanta-Force Paintball www.hanta-force.com
VOR, one question. If Cat comes back and tells you that you can't put Ceballos in the draft, are you going to accept it as the verdict of the final man in charge, or are you going to b**** to high heaven? I only ask, because I am tired of arguring over this crap whenever the only "rules" we have to go by are the ones that Cat told us in chat and whatnot, not rules that were set out from the beginning to be followed strictly with no loopholes. I think it best if Cat were to tell us what is acceptable in such a way that makes it impossible to work around. I just worry that Cat will come back and lay down the law (as he should), and all the top GMs of the league who really have something to lose in their top quality players will continue this arguing. ------------------ CC.NET Sim League Web Page My Team (Sonics) Feeling claustrophobic, like the walls are closing in. Blood stains on my hands, and I don't know where I've been. I'm in trouble for the things I haven't got to yet. I'm chomping at the bit, and my palms are getting wet. Sweating Bullets Runnin', Ravin', Endin', Out.
honestly, i willl likely discuss this issue with Cat on IM. it is really not something that anyone with a stake in the league should voice up on. Cat having a stake in the league is in a complex situation, and that is why i will talk to him one on one. when i chatted breifly on friday he said he was likely to allow ceballos. i know that this is not his final word yet, however i take it to at least an indication/ when you wonder if im gonna keep b****ing i ask you to check all the archives. i may be bithcing to you, but when i go online like everyone else to post(out of courtesy, and not obligation) my expexted free agency losses i was immediately attacked for my choices. now i know heath was doing his part as a kind of league officianado, but regardless i was put on the defensice and basicly called a cheater. several other managers chimed in, and it was like a full fledged VOR hate fest. especially when i went into the chat. eveyone in there had mentioned that they had previoulsy discussed it with cat, and that i couldnt put up my guys. hell i barely thought about it. i answered one guy like a month ago when asked who i might put im the puul, but it was way too early. and now i find that the entire league has been conspiring to choose who i enter into the draft. if you guys were so concerned that i might do something that you saw as cheating, than you may have wanted to let me knoe earlier. instead i have half the league call me a cheater. i seriously fell like most of you guys are b****ing. i warned of the problems the common draft posed in the pre season and i have advocated the re-start of the whole league. i am in favor of equality. with rules the way they are now it makes it a hindrence to your franchize to use substitutes. it makes it a hindrence to drade during the season, and it makes me sick of all the b****ing. if i knew all this **** was gonna happen i would have left they guys starting from the pre season. for some reason 34 games of marshal has become a frikin crime. and finally to answer your question. if i was informed that cedric ceballos was not allowed into the draft on grounds that he does not fit the description of "starter" as layed out in the rules. that he is not a quality player that will make my team worse, and another team better than I will quit this league untill rules are clear and not based on which player others think is better. i am not gonna stay involved in some petty crap where we are judging wether it is ok for a guy to follow the rules. I have followed them, if i am not allowed to play by them than i will have no respect for the league and be forced to leave. i know it seems dramatic, but it is the honest truth. ohh, and yeah i would probably b**** alot. peace ------------------ Hanta-Force Paintball www.hanta-force.com
Well, I say just start the league over period. Modify the common draft to one round, only one starter given up. All in favor of a massive re-draft, say Aye. ------------------ The next time I have meat and mashed potatoes, I think I'll put a very large blob of potatoes on my plate with just a little piece of meat. And if someone asks me why i didn't get more meat, ill just say, "Oh, you mean this?" and pull out a big piece of meat from inside the blob of potatoes, where ive hidden it. Good magic trick, huh?
i agree nomar... fair way to stop all this nonsense .... I AM OFFICIALY STARTING THE CAMPAIGN TO RESTART THE LEAGUE!!!!!!!!!!!! ------------------ "The early bird may get the worm, but so does the bird that finished off the tequila bottle the night before"
Yeah, thats nice - threaten to quit. Let's blow this league to kingdom come over this dispute. Ceballos not allowed: VOR quits Ceballos allowed: I quit I said I would accept The Cat's decision. Why can't you? Why do you have to be overly defensive about it? About restarting the league/massive draft - yeah then I would really quit. ------------------ The CC.net NBA Sim Board/Homepage
I would like to start over too if only to get rid of the common draft. No one can b**** and complain if they had a chance to draft their whole team, so we could get rid of the draft altogether. I think it is obvious that the common draft isn't going to help the bad teams that much, so why continue to keep it. I want to point out also that the last three trades I made were for common draft picks. In doing so, I thought, number one, that everyone had to put two of there top 5 or in some cases 6 players in the draft. Two, I thought that my picks would be higher. I remember you said that no teams would be added, then when a few more wanted to join you let them. Now I am not complaining about that much - I want a full league too, but I did get screwed. Please make a bold decision CAT. I think most here wouldn't mine starting over, except heath of course. ------------------ I am an invisible man. [This message has been edited by kbm (edited June 17, 2001).]
I don't really want to start over the league with a massive draft. I have done so much maneuvering this season to prepare myself for next season, it would suck to see all that for naught. But if Cat comes back and declares that the only way he sees to resolve all this nonsense is to restart with a massive draft, I will not take my ball and go home. I am in this league for fun, not to win at all costs. I know the tedium that will be a 12 round draft, and I do not look forward to it. But that is, as I see it, the only way to even out this league and start over with new rules that prevent any possible loopholes and "hiding" of players. I am most disappointed in BGM's friend. He meant a lot to this league, and to declare his intentions to quit so suddenly, it is a threat to the structural integrity of the league. If BGM's Friend quits, everything might fall apart. ------------------ CC.NET Sim League Web Page My Team (Sonics) Feeling claustrophobic, like the walls are closing in. Blood stains on my hands, and I don't know where I've been. I'm in trouble for the things I haven't got to yet. I'm chomping at the bit, and my palms are getting wet. Sweating Bullets Runnin', Ravin', Endin', Out.
We're not starting over b/c of a single problem with rules. I think my opinion is pretty well known on the starting over thing. I want to do a massive 12 round draft and say the hell with the common draft, but I know that many people want to continue with what they've built so far and i respect that. Also if we're going to talk about people "getting screwed" then I might as well throw in my sob story. I traded for the Bulls rookie pick, it was #3 and we all know the top 3 picks are a cut above the rest of the draft. Well that pick's dropped all the way down to 8, and it's all because of the new GM's. I'm not complaining about that though, I'm happy we've got a full league. I'm just showing that you're not the only that's been hurt by the expansion of this league kbm. I've fallen from #3 to #8 in the rookie draft which is a big difference. I also should comment that GB's original solution is quite admirable in that he was willing to give up a better player just to shut everyone up. Kudos to you GettinBranded, now you better not pass up the Clippers. Another comment, this league is getting less and less fun with all of this arguing. This issue isn't worth threatening to quit over or getting upset about. I did get upset about this whole thing at one time, then I realized what a freaking loser I was for caring that much about it. VOR, you're easily one of the top GM's in this league, if you quit over something as weak as this, I'll be very dissapointed. I'd have no one to really talk smack to anymore since the only other GM's that are around either handle the bottom feeders in the Western Conference or operate one of the Eastern Conference teams, and we all know how bad those teams are... You gotta do what you gotta do though... I also feel like adding that Cat picked a great time to leave us GM's alone to operate the ship. We've got a mutiny going on! Let's remember why we're all in this league, to have fun, build up a team, talk smack, and to burn time while the Rockets (or Bulls if you're a real loser ) aren't playing... ------------------ Hey, it's the wizard! I hope you don't get nervous like last time. We wouldn't want you to... "wiz" on someone! [This message has been edited by Band Geek Mobster (edited June 17, 2001).]
Yeah BGM, I'm not complaining really because inside I knew that if other GMs wanted to join, then, by all means, we should let them. And I do agree the bickering is getting a little to much to handle, even though I start a lot of it myself. I just feel that the longer these issues stay unaddressed the harder they will be to resolve. ------------------ I am an invisible man.
