The Confederate Flag

I don't have a problem with the comparison. It's a symbol of racial hate and oppression. Of course, Dean never said otherwise. He just said that the poor whites that embraced the symbol would be better served by Democratic policy. This issue always reminds me of the Dylan song Only A Pawn In Their Game:

A bullet from the back of a bush took Medgar Evers' blood.
A finger fired the trigger to his name.
A handle hid out in the dark
A hand set the spark
Two eyes took the aim
Behind a man's brain
But he can't be blamed
He's only a pawn in their game.

A South politician preaches to the poor white man,
"You got more than the blacks, don't complain.
You're better than them, you been born with white skin," they explain.
And the Negro's name
Is used it is plain
For the politician's gain
As he rises to fame
And the poor white remains
On the caboose of the train
But it ain't him to blame
He's only a pawn in their game.

The deputy sheriffs, the soldiers, the governors get paid,
And the marshals and cops get the same,
But the poor white man's used in the hands of them all like a tool.
He's taught in his school
From the start by the rule
That the laws are with him
To protect his white skin
To keep up his hate
So he never thinks straight
'Bout the shape that he's in
But it ain't him to blame
He's only a pawn in their game.

From the poverty shacks, he looks from the cracks to the tracks,
And the hoof beats pound in his brain.
And he's taught how to walk in a pack
Shoot in the back
With his fist in a clinch
To hang and to lynch
To hide 'neath the hood
To kill with no pain
Like a dog on a chain
He ain't got no name
But it ain't him to blame
He's only a pawn in their game.

Today, Medgar Evers was buried from the bullet he caught.
They lowered him down as a king.
But when the shadowy sun sets on the one
That fired the gun
He'll see by his grave
On the stone that remains
Carved next to his name
His epitaph plain:
Only a pawn in their game.

 

"Well, I'm not a fan of the Confederate flag, but that's going too far."

BTW what was the color of the guy/gal that had this quip?

If anybody finds the confederate flag offensive, who am I to question their reason. I can try to understand their reason, but not question it.

In this case, I can certainly see why a black American would find it offensive. I also do not see why a comparison with a swastica is relevant.

 

The Confederate flag reminds me of a time when my ancestors died defending their freedom.

The idea of the flag isn't an absolute. It doesn't automatically stand for anti-black unless it's used that way. It doesn't mean anti-black people to me. It means something different.

In my opinion, the Civil War wasn't about slavery. It was about a way of life. I think slavery would have ended of its own accord anyway. The South and its agricultural aristocracy against the industrial melting pot of the north. Even though we were better at war, we lost because of numbers. It's all a moot point now, I like the flag as it reminds me of where I came from. I had family that fought ranging from lowly grunts to a general. And I'd like to remember that.

 

If people want to display the "Losers" flag, go right ahead, I used to have a problem with, no I really don't care. I have more important things to worry about.

 

i understand this...and i understand your points that the civil war was not entirely about slavery...to many, that was an afterthought...that the bigger picture was a states rights battle that still seems to be played out on an intellectual level, at least.

i am related to jefferson davis. i'm not particularly prideful of that, though. he may have been a smart fella...but that doesn't excite me much. ultimately, he believed that white people were superior to black people. that is so untenable to me that it greatly undermines my ability to see him as anything more than that.

and ultimately...i agree with no worries...how can i say whether or not it's offensive to others?

 

Nomar is a Red Sox fan, you know.

 

I think you've touched on another element here. The swastika is not only the symbol of the government that tried to exterminate the Jews, it is also the symbol of the government that invaded Checkoslavakia, Poland, Beligium, France, Soviet Union and England (and I know there are others besides). The Nazis were proactive in their racial policies and their territorial expansion. The Confederacy was resisting change in their racial policies and invaded no one during their short existence. The Confederacy has elements to not be proud of, but at least they weren't nearly as belligerent as the Nazis. There are multiple bad associations with the swastika whereas the Confederate flag really only has the one.

I think there is also a barrier to comparison in that one symbol is domestic and the other is foreign. We don't need to be understanding about the heritage from the Nazis because they were in a different country. We don't have a lot of people with a conflicted history because of the Nazis. It is different in Germany, but that is theirs to sort out. Here, though, we have many people who have inherited the legacy of the Confederate days and though some of our ancestors have done some evil things, it isn't easy to completely deny them, especially when they have done noble things as well.

And yet, despite all this, when I see some dusty pickup truck with a confederate flag bumber sticker, it really only makes me think of one thing: racist. If they are trying to convey something else, they need to find a new symbol.

 

I have the most problem with it when the flag is incoporated in a state flag for example or is flown over government facilities. That's outrageous. If someone wants to fly a symbol of hatred, death, and slavery in their front lawn I guess that's their right.

I also get tired of this the civil war was about states rights attitude to dimish the real role of slavery in the war. The primary states right involved was slavery. The way of life was to keep slaves. The Confederate flag, ie Southern Cross, was a battle flag. It wasn't some southern symbol around for generations prior to the war. The flag simply did not exist prior to the war. I find the romanticism attached to this flag concerning ways of life, tradition, and heritage to be sickening.

 

I have a confession to make, I am prejudiced. When I see a confederate flag on the back of a pickup truck, I always assume that person is an ignorant red neck. I need help.

 

Didn't the Confederates strike the first blow in the Civil War? Didn't the first battles occur in the North? Gettysburg is certainly not in the South.

 

I see your Bob Dylan and I raise you Phil Ochs (since it was about Evers):

In the state of Mississippi, many years ago,
A boy of 14 years got a taste of Southern law.
He saw his friend a-hangin', his color was his crime;
The blood upon his jacket put a brand upon his mind.
CHORUS:
Too many martyrs and too many dead,
Too many lies, too many empty words were said,
Too many times for too many angry men,
Oh, let it never be again.

Then the boy became a man, the man became a cause;
The cause became the hope for the country and its laws.
The tried to burn his home and they beat him to the ground;
But deep inside they both knew what it took to bring him down.


The killer waited by his home, hidden by the night,
As Evers stepped out from his car into the rifle sight.
He slowly squeezed the trigger, the bullet left his side;
It struck the heart of every man when Evers fell and died.

They laid him in his grave while the bugle sounded clear,
They laid him in his grave while the victory was near.
While we waited for the future for freedom through the land,
The country gained a killer, and the country lost a man,

 

You know, I don't know. If you say so, probably. I don't think it is actually relevant to what I was saying though. The Confederacy knew they'd have to fight a war to secure the secession, so you could even say they declared war in a way by seceding in the first place. But, I don't think it can be argued that the South was looking for territorial expansion through war the way Hitler was. They were hoping to either defend themselves to secure the secession or perhaps force the North to recognize the rights of the individual states and return to a pre-secession union in which the States were empowered to make decisions within their borders, including the issue of slave-holding. I don't think anyone of any importance in the Confederacy was hoping to make the northern states actually answerable to the Confederate capital.

The Nazis, on the other hand, actively sought an increase of their territory at the expense of neighboring countries. Macbeth, the defense of Germany wasn't their only motivation, nor did they even say so at the time. They were on a campaign of Lebansraum (someone, please correct my German) to clear neighboring territory of lesser races to allow the German race to expand. They flat out said it at the time.

The Confederacy may have changed its tune over time. Germany was in the same position in the 1860s as the Confederacy -- fighting wars to stave off foreign aggressors and build a strong, self-sustaining union. Unlike the Confederates, the Germans won and, a half-century later became aggressors in WWI and WWII. But, at the time, I don't think you can characterize the South's war as any more belligerant than Bismarck's Franco-Prussian War (a war in which he thoroughly whipped the French and promptly left them to their own devices).

 

The Confederacy was the most traitorous and destructive movement in American history. It broke apart from the United States of America, and was responsible for a war that cost more American lives than any other war in history.

So they could own slaves.

That's certainly a legacy I would advertise on my pickup truck next to my American flag.

 

but that wasn't it, though. i mean, i'm not defending the south at all...but i remember tariffs...the rise of industrialization vs. the agrarian communities in the south...there were more issues than merely slavery. the very application of the due process clause to the state governments as opposed to just the federal government. those were honest differences in how those in the south felt government should work. no doubt, part of that was to ensure slavery for many...but men like Robert E. Lee freed his slaves before joining the Confederacy...so clearly that wasn't the only issue.