A few people on this BBS have wondered how our troops can support John Kerry. After reading this editorial, I wonder how our troops can support George W. Bush. From the Toledo Blade... http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041005/OPINION02/410050310/-1/OPINION The back-door draft ONE of the unintended public policy side effects of the war in Iraq is that the United States no longer has an all-volunteer military force. The volunteer force, fruit of the bitter experience with the draft during the Vietnam War years, was abrogated in June when the Pentagon issued what's known as a "stop loss" order. The order, necessary to ensure sufficient troops for the continuing war in Iraq, is forcing many members of the military to remain in service after their contractual enlistment runs out. Some in Congress, including Republican Sen. John McCain, are referring to "stop loss" as a synonym for "back-door draft," and that's really what it amounts to. News reports indicate the action is dragging down military morale, especially among National Guard and Reserve troops, who are playing a bigger role than ever in fighting a foreign war. Many of those troops have families and children back home. Being able to keep volunteer soldiers in uniform is, for the Pentagon, the next best thing to reinstating the draft, which was abolished in 1973, near the end of the Vietnam War. Reviving Selective Service, as it was known, has been a non-issue in the presidential campaign because of its perceived unpopularity with the general public. What's being ignored is the toll taken on those troops who expected to serve out their enlistment and leave the service. The longer "stop loss" is in effect, the more likely it will become for weary personnel to refuse to re-enlist when they finally do get a chance to make a break. The result down the line is almost certain to be significant personnel shortages. As one former Army captain who served in Afghanistan told the Chicago Tribune, "In a year and a half or two years, there are going to be huge shortages. You can't keep these guys in for good." Already, one member of the California National Guard is challenging the stop loss order in federal court on the grounds that such orders can only be issued when war has been declared by Congress. As with Vietnam, Congress gave the President authority to use military force but did not declare war. At present, the U.S. military is stretched thin around the world, a reflection of the lack of foresight and planning on the part of President Bush and members of his administration who pushed so hard for the war. Short of bringing back the draft, it is hard to see where sufficient troops will come from to protect against all the dangers Mr. Bush has identified in the world. One thing is certain, though: Continuation of the stop-loss order will only make matters worse.
My 54 year old father wasn't allowed to retire from the National Guard this year because of stop gap. We had a very close call when he recieved orders for Iraq. We were able to get him out of it due to my mother's disability (multiple sclerosis) and the fact that he is the primary caregiver. But they still won't let him retire. He went to drill this month with the 5 other guys left in his unit, all of whom are no longer deployable but can't get out because of stop gap. Those that don't believe a draft is imminent if Bush gets re-elected, well you haven't met my dad. He's convinced this will be my generation's Vietnam.
For the last damned time: THIS IS NOT A DRAFT. Sign your name on the dotted line, face the music like a man, not like a little wuss. "Aww, boo-hoo, I have to go to Iraq, it's not fair." Well, you weren't forced to sign up with a gun to your head. You had a choice. Draft my ass......
This is a "remains to be seen" topic so Dem's and Rep's are both spinning their wheels as of now no one knows how big of an effect the "stop loss" measures will have on future recruitment/reenlistment no one knows how long we'll be in Iraq As for now, there is no question that the military needs the people that are currently in the military and cannot afford to lose any more When you sign up for the military, they make it pretty clear to you you can't quit in the middle of combat... as sorry as I am for them- you have your opinions as to the results of "stop loss", but thats all they are, no matter which canidate you support Props to McCain fighting whoever he thinks doesn't have the nations best interest at heart...
A good friend of mine works for a wine distributor here in town. He says the guys who take the deliveries at the back of HEB have to wear a tag that says "Back Door Receiver."
Christ, bama, you never cease to amaze me with what a FREAKING TOOL you are. You know how many stories I've heard from my high school teacher friends, about 18 year old kids being lied to by recruiters, being told they're going to college on Uncle Sam's dime, when really they're headed straight for a warzone as soon as they get through basic. My family knows one kid that was talked into a 5 year enlistment, because "he won't get back from spy school for 3 years". Yeah right, we just got word that he's going straight overseas. So much for that James Bond MOS that the recruiters had him slotted in. Go ahead and perpetuate a lie. Generalize the lives of thousands of part-time troops that are getting pulled away from their families to defend a country that we had no business invading. Belittle their sacrifices by throwing their commitment in their faces. A commitment that is rapidly changing underneath them, shifting quickly from volunteer enlistments into endless entrapment. When you grow the balls to leave your family for a minimum of two years to go fight in the desert, then maybe I'd respect you. Until then, have fun stroking your ego from behind your monitor, you fool.
Alright there, hoss. Just take it easy with the name calling. Everyone knows bamaslammer is confrontational. I know this is very personal for you, but it is just a bulletin board and what bama says are just words. Nothing more.
Why does Colonel Hackworth hate America? Why can't he be a real military guy like BamaSlammer? Whe can't he be as knowlegeable about military affairs as Bama? *************** Uncle Sam Will Soon Want Your Kids By David H. Hackworth Recently, when John Kerry brought up the possibility of a return to the draft, SecDef Donald Rumsfeld was quick to respond that Kerry was full of it. But my take is that Kerry is right on the mark. Not only because Rummy has been flat wrong on every major military call regarding Iraq, but because this is a war that won’t be won by smart weapons or the sledgehammer firepower we see every night on the tube. Right now – with both our regular and Reserve soldiers stretched beyond the breaking point – our all-volunteer force is tapping out. If our overseas troop commitments continue at the present rate or climb higher, there won’t be enough Army and Marine grunts to do the job. And thin, overworked units, from Special Forces teams to infantry battalions, lose fights. Clearly, this war against worldwide, hardcore Islamic believers will be a massive military marathon, the longest and most far-flung in our country’s history. By Christmas, more troops could be needed not only in Iraq and Afghanistan, but wherever the radical Islamic movement is growing stronger, from the Horn of Africa to Morocco, Kenya, Somalia, Yemen and across Europe – remember Spain?! – to Asia. Accordingly, we need to bring our ground-fighting and support units to about the strength they were before the Soviet Union imploded, especially since the proper ratio of counterinsurgent-to-insurgent in places like the Middle East should be around 15 to 1. You don’t have to be a Ph.D. in military personnel to conclude we need more boots on the ground. Most of our warriors – who are mainly from blue-collar families from Small Town, USA – have few political connections and few conduits though which they can effectively sound off. So when they get screwed over by a desperate Pentagon’s makeshift policies – such as the “Stop Loss” program that’s holding over large numbers of our servicemen and -women well beyond their contractually agreed-upon terms of enlistment, or the widespread calling up of out-of-shape, ill-trained citizen soldiers from the Individual Ready Reserve – these “volunteers” salute, suck it up and lay their lives on the line. But like elephants, they won’t forget that they are “backdoor draftees,” as Kerry and John McCain call them. Which means that when their hitches are up, they won’t be rushing to re-enlist. And they’re also warning their younger brothers, sisters and pals to stay away from recruiting stations. Although Pentagon puff artists insist they’re making quota, recruiters are already saying it would be easier to find $100 bills on the sidewalk outside a homeless shelter than fill their enlistment quotas, even with the huge bonuses now being paid. So the draft – which will include both boys and girls this time around – is a no-brainer in ‘05 and ‘06. Oh sure, the Pentagon suits will fight it. Volunteers tend to go with the flow and seldom blow the whistle on military stupidity, flawed tactics and self-serving leadership. And draftees don’t hesitate to make waves and tell the truth. Not to mention influential citizens with draft-age kids who’ll soon be demanding an answer to the same type of hard question their moms and dads shouted during the Vietnam War: “Hey, hey, LBJ, how many kids did you kill today?” Rumsfeld, in fact, has already kicked off the anti-draft campaign by denigrating the draftees who fought in Vietnam. The SecDef, who prefers sycophants who don’t ask questions, recently stated that Vietnam-era draftees added “No value, no advantage, really, to the United States armed services ... because ... it took an enormous amount of effort in terms of training, and then they were gone.” Wrong once again. I led draftees for almost four years in Vietnam and for several years during the Korean War. If well-led, there are no finer soldiers. Ask the Nazis, the Japanese and the Reds in Korea and in Vietnam, where “no value” draftees cleaned their clocks in fight after fight. Israel, a country that has lived under the barrel of the Islamic terrorist gun for decades, has the most combat-experienced counterinsurgent force in the world – and boy and girl draftees are its major resource. Count on it. We will follow their lead. link
Bama this is a serious question ~ if you received a call back notice (i.e. you are going back to Iraq for an unknown amount of time within a month) how would you react?
Nope. Today's average American is not someone living under totalitarian rule, or one who sees his countymen blown up at home every day. A draft would never work here, at least not for this generation or under these circumstances.
What does one have to do with the other? Even if your dad and I were best buddies, I still wouldn't believe "a draft is imminent" because it's not true.
Brian, please don't shatter the hopes and dreams of KFL's. This is their favorite America is evil conspiracy theory. Don't take that from them.
While I'm sure that there are a lot who don't wish to go, there are also a lot who are eager to go. I heard some inactive duty callers on talk radio in the past couple of weeks who would rather go to Iraq/Afghanistan themselves than for us to send 18-20 YO inexperienced kids. They were <b>willing to leave families behind</b> to go and do the job. One guy said that those young boys hadn't even had a chance to be men yet, so he was willing to take their place. And he made it sound like most of his buddies in like station are willing to do the same. It would seem that you, too, are generalizing and perhaps in a worse way by being ignorant of the bravery, commitment, and selflessness of these kinds of soldiers.
Yeah, you're right. Rumsfeld admits that we don't have enough men on the ground. A report that just came out said that there should be twice as many troops in Iraq as there are right now. Our troop rotations are so completely screwed up that units have stayed twice as long as they should. We're running out of manpower, and the current administration has neither the ability nor the inclination to get help from our allies. Grandfathers are being called out of retirement to fight. But there won't be a draft. At least not until AFTER the election.
No our favorite conspiracy theory is that the Bush Administration hyped Iraq's WMD threat and links to Al Qaeda. How did that turn out again?
It doesn't matter if it's true or not. Perception is reality. At least that's what the Democrats are hoping for on election day. Scare the young voters. Vote for John Kerry or you will be DRAFTED.
You're right ima! That's definitely not as good as "If you vote for Kerry we'll be attacked again!" That's much better.
