Okay, this may or may not have been posted in the past... probably has, but anyways, what else are ya'll gonna do? What level of greatness do you think Steve Francis will achieve by the end of his NBA career. Make your choice with the assumption he is able to stay relatively healthy. A. Best PG ever - Better than Magic and Stockton B. Hall of Fame - Top 5 PGs ever C. Hall of Fame - Top 10 PGs ever D. Consistent All-Star - not every year, but most E. Sometime All-Star - every other year or less F. All-Star wanna be - 3rd best in Conference each yr G. Top 5 in Conference H. He's had his best year ------------------------- Try to use other players as a barometer. Remember, who would've thought Hakeem would've been considered one of the Top 3 Centers in NBA history when he was drafted (I mean besides me ) ------------------ I have a dream.........his name's Hakeem.
My assessment is leaning towards somewhere between C and D, but closer to C. One name comes to mind when I think of a PG I'd like Francis to develop into, and one that he has a good chance of emulating. GARY PAYTON Right now, Francis has a better overall offensive game. Even though Payton scores more, Francis can do more and has room to improve. Defensively, it's obviously not even close. But, I think Francis has the "potential" to be a good defender. He has the quickness and basketball sense needed, but what he needs it the desire. To me that's what defense is all about. You have to crave playing defense. It doesn't come as easily as the ability to shoot. Francis does need to work on his passing, but I realize he's a rookie, and realistically all aspects of his game needs a little work. But, Payton isn't known to be a "pass first" type PG. The only area of Francis' game that really concerns me is his "style". By that I mean, he plays the game above the rim ... way above the rim. But, he's only 6'3". Any type of leg injury will take a considerable amount of that aspect of his game away. I just hope he works on the "other" parts of basketball, like: perimeter shooting, creativity, ball handling, etc. His turnovers are absolutely ridiculous. He had the 2nd worst year ever by a Rocket, as far as TOs per game. The only other guard in the top 20 worst is Sleepy Floyd at 19. Here's some stats from the top 11 point guards in the league this past season to compare to Stevie with. They are ranked in order of most assists per game in descending order for this season. <BR CLEAR="all"><FONT SIZE="3" FACE="Verdana, Arial" COLOR="#000000"><CENTER><TABLE BORDER ALIGN="center"><TR><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center">STATS</DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>PTS</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>AST</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>TO/MIN</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>AST/TO</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>High</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>2000</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>AVG</CENTER></DIV></TD></TR><TR><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Kidd</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>13.6</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>9.3</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>0.0878</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>2.84</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD VALIGN="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>4.0</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD VALIGN="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>3.4</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD VALIGN="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>3.3</CENTER></DIV></TD></TR><TR><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Cassell</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>14.2</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>5.9</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>0.0943</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>2.23</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>3.6</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>3.3</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>2.6</CENTER></DIV></TD></TR><TR><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Van Exel</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>15.3</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>7.6</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>0.0659</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>3.25</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>2.8</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>2.8</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>2.3</CENTER></DIV></TD></TR><TR><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Brandon</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>13.6</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>5.8</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>0.0687</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>2.92</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>2.9</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>2.6</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>2.0</CENTER></DIV></TD></TR><TR><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Payton</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>17.2</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>7.1</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>0.0695</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>2.83</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>3.2</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>2.7</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>2.5</CENTER></DIV></TD></TR><TR><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Stockton</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>13.3</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>11.0</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>0.0901</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>3.78</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>3.8</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>2.2</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>2.9</CENTER></DIV></TD><TR><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Marbury</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>19.1</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>8.4</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>0.0881</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>2.54</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>3.6</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>3.6</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>3.3</CENTER></DIV></TD></TR><TR><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Bibby</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>14.0</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>7.5</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>0.0800</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>2.52</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>3.0</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>3.0</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>3.0</CENTER></DIV></TD><TR><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Jackson</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>10.6</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>8.5</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>0.0817</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>3.27</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>3.3</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>2.1</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>2.6</CENTER></DIV></TD><TR><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Snow</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>5.2</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>4.4</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>0.0633</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>3.16</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>2.3</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>2.0</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>1.4</CENTER></DIV></TD><TR><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Strickland</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>14.8</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>8.0</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>0.0876</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>2.78</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>3.8</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>2.7</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>2.9</CENTER></DIV></TD><TR><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Francis</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>18.0</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>6.6</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>0.1102</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>1.66</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>4.0</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>4.0</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>4.0</CENTER></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></FONT></CENTER> A couple of suprising things come to mind after seeing this table. 1.) Man, Nick Van Exel would be a helluva PG if he could play any defense, and shoot a decent FG% 2.) Wow, John Stockton had the third worst TO/MIN ratio out of this group. 2nd worst if you don't include Francis. 3.) Oh, Stockton had the best AST/TO ratio by far. Notice who was 3rd? Look at #1. ------------------ I have a dream.........his name's Hakeem. [This message has been edited by DREAMer (edited May 09, 2000).]
I am going to go with A. Francis has unlimited potential and I have heard Rudy say that he thinks it is possible that Francis will become the best ever to play the position. Anyways stats lie sometimes. Everybody seems to be complaining about the turnover to assist ratio and how it was one of the higher ones in the league but if you look at those stats Kidd averaged 4 a game one season and he is considered the best passer in the game today. My point is Francis was a rookie learning a new position he is still developing. Really if you'll think back he pretty much outplayed every PG he went up against including Stockton among others. ------------------
Dreamer, Are those numbers correct? You said the list is sorted in descending order by total assists, right? In that case, there's no way Kidd should be at the top of the list. Payton had more total assists this season than anyone (732), followed by Cassell, Van Exel, Stockton, and then Kidd. In terms of total assists, Jason Williams should be #11. Strickland shouldn't have made your list. Also, from briefly glancing at Payton's stats, he averaged 24.2 points per game, not 17.2. Stockton's TO/Min should be .0736. Regarding Assist/TO ratios. Stockton wasn't that far ahead. Stockton should be listed as having a A:TO of 3.92. Eric Snow's was 3.851, and Mark Jackson's was 3.735. You've been letting Hutz get into your PC again, haven't you? BTW, nobody comes close to Muggys Bogues in the A:TO category... 5.068. Ridiculous. ------------------ ? [This message has been edited by Dr of Dunk (edited May 09, 2000).]
DoD, All my numbers are correct. You just didn't realize which ones I used. I listed them in order of most assists per game this past season. All the other stats are all career numbers. I was trying to show how Francis compares with the careers of the top 11 point guards of last season, since my question was what everyone thought Francis' career would end up like. BTW, you didn't answer the question about Francis. ------------------ I have a dream.........his name's Hakeem. [This message has been edited by DREAMer (edited May 09, 2000).]
Good post. i choose letter F none of the above. Letter F is Steve Francis will go however far he wants to go on the basketball court and in the game life whether it be the greatest PG ever, or a washed up CBA player. the only person who realize his potential is himself. ------------------ --TEX
TxDiP, Ah, geez.... Why couldn't you at least play along? Obviously, no one knows how good or bad Steve Francis will eventually become. But, we're also banking on the fact that he'll be our "star" for years to come. And, you are incorrect in saying that: "Letter F is: Steve Francis will go however far he wants to go on the basketball court and in the game life whether it be the greatest PG ever, or a washed up CBA player." I doubt Lou Gehrig wanted to stop playing. I doubt Hakeem wanted injuries to slow him down the past few seasons. I doubt Reggie Lewis, Hank Gathers, Bobby Phills, or Lenny Bias wanted to die. [This message has been edited by DREAMer (edited May 10, 2000).]
Francis better be superior to Stockton when he was done, but asking him to equal Magic is too much. Personally, Payton and Kidd are better players now than Stockton ever was--just look at what Payton has done to Stockton when matched up over the last 8 years or so. Stockton was an trully oustanding player for a very long time, but not dominant in the sense he as an individual player could destroy a defense (he always had Karl to create the mismatches). Magic, Isiah, Payton, Kidd (I don't know enough about Cousy to say)--and hopefully Stevie, these are some of the point guards that can single handedly destroy an opponents defense and can stake claim to being AMONG the greatist PGs. Magic is the best PG hands down unless you consider Robertson at that position--even if he wasn't officially he probably should be consdered one because the ball was always in his hands and he was setting up others and himself. He has seasons where he averaged over 11 assists--that shows he was a PG in my book. Nobody else in this thread has a good argument for being the best point guard ever except for Magic or Robertson. [This message has been edited by sir scarvajal (edited May 09, 2000).]
Ah, ok. Gotcha. As for the question, I have no idea. I hate making player career evaluations after 1 season. There are superstars that start out great and there are others that evolve gradually, for example a Drexler or Karl Malone who were players no one could've predicted reasonably would be as great as they turned out. I'm not sure how Francis will improve. Just like Malone and Drexler, it depends on how willing he is to improve and how much work he puts in. I'll answer in about 2 years. ------------------ ?
I eould say a "D" He will have good years and above average years ------------------ Dont do today what you can put of until tomorrow
Sir Scar, I see we have totally different opinions on the game of basketball. If you say that because the Big O is a great PG because he average 11 assists in a couple of seasons, then why isn't John Stockton who has averaged 11 assists for his entire CAREER? Between the ten-year span of the 1988 and 1997 seasons, Stockton averaged 12.84 assists per game. As far as defense goes, Stockton has more steals than any other player in NBA history. He may flop 90% of the time, and he is more than likely smaller than the PG he goes up against, but he is a good team defender with good fundamentals. How about shooting? Stockton has a career FG% of .518, which is unheard of nowadays for any guard, hell any PLAYER for that matter. He's a career .825 free throw shooter. He's a career .382 three-point shooter. What about leadership? This guy is one of the best floor generals ever. He knows how to get into opposing player's heads. He knows how to push that damn ball up every single trip up the floor. He's also one of the most competitive players on the floor night in and night out. If you want athleticism and flash go with Magic. If you want consistency and a PG who doesn't need to shoot, and when he does hits over half his shots, then go with Stockton. When people ask me who I think the best PG ever in the NBA was, I always say it's a toss up between Magic and Stockton. -------------------------- Now please excuse me while I go puke up my dinner.... ------------------ I have a dream.........his name's Hakeem.
My hope is C and anything else is gravy. ------------------ "I don't think I'm better than anybody unless I'm on the court." Charles Barkley
Dreamer, it sounds like you need to move to Utah. Isn't he also know around the league as one of the dirtiest players. Everyone associated with the Jazz, sucks. ------------------
OT, there is a difference between "respecting a player's skill" and what you called "being associated with the Jazz". No members here has ever claimed "DREAMer" to be a Jass fan. Get your facts straight before you call him out. DREAMer, I think Francis will be somewhere between a "C" & a "D". If we get a dominating scorer where Francis does not need to be the #1 scoring option, it will free him up to be a better PG. I think this will make him become a "C". If Francis remains our #1 scoring option, I think it will limit his growth in the PG area. Just my opinion. Oh, I forgot to add that I would like to see him become the next Isiah Thomas. In another word, be a PG first then a scorer. [This message has been edited by MoonBus (edited May 10, 2000).]
LOL!! I love that. Great post, DREAMer. I am glad we have posters such as yourself who do this sort of thing, instead of the Admins having to do it and then pretend to be someone else. ------------------ He's a center! He's a guard! He's seven feet of unbridled talent. He slices, dices, and can even cut through a TIN CAN! He's Kelvin Cato, and he can be yours for a low low price!
I take nothing away from John Stockton, he has been a great player for a very long time. But if that is your criteria for the best, than Kareem Abdul Jabbar is the best of all time. Yet I don't think too many people will say Kareem is the very best player. Most would say he is one of the 10 best, some might have him as high as #2 (too MJ, Russel or Wilt, depending on a host of criteria you use), but he doesn't have a strong cases for being #1. Stockton has provided some consistent and outstanding numbers over a very long time. His determination and focus on winning along with MJ has been probably the tops in the league the last 15 years or so. This is an admirable quality. But, he also has zero rings, never scored 20 PG, never had the body to physcially dominate (which like it or not is part of being a great basketball player) and always had an even better player (Karl Malone) to create the mismatches on the floor. Think of it this way, lets say we all have forsight to see what these players will become-and Magic, Isiah, Payton, Kidd and Stockton are all on the same draft board (let's say we take out Robertson--though I still think he was more of a point guard than anything else). There is no way Magic isn't the first taken, at best Stockton would be the 4th, maybe ahead of Kidd in 5th. Given these other point guards (there is no argument these players didn't play this position) are simply better players I don't know how you can come to a toss up as the best point guard ever with John Stockton being in the sentence. Dreamer, yes, you and I do seem to see things quite different more often than not, but the forum would be boring if it were not for the occasional hefty disagrements. ------------------
