Ok, boys and girls, we're going to take words and twist them today. Ready? And twist, and twist, and twist, and, one more! twisst. Way to go drox. What in the world are you talking about? I tolerate just about friggin everything. I whine against the whiners. I bully the bullies. I have for a while now. Bring it on. You're in the popular majority. It should be easy. Just come up with substance. And don't give me the "we've been tolerating" crap. Your entire argument is based on my being a nuissance, at best, on nights where you are out on the town. You grew up with it. Live with it. Or show me some substantive proof as to why it is killing you. I haven't seen it. The fact is: Let's say this passes. They do a study 5 years later. OMG!!! People are still dying from lung cancer who don't smoke! It's still getting to us! And I know its from those damn cigarette people! And they pass a new law. And so on, until everyone stops smoking, and then they figure out that second hand smoke was a huge joke. You don't like the smell, or the linger. I get it. Y'all open up some new non-smoking places, and enjoy! Btw, California is trying to ban smoking in people's back yards now. Seriously.
Bars are BUILT for smoking. Drinking and smoking is what bars are FOR. We ALL know this, so let's stop pretending that bars are for families. Alcohol kills people, smoking kills people, but people like them anyway and they go to BARS to indulge. But... but... what if a non-smoker is a bartender?! He might have to breathe smoke at the bar!!!! First off, a ton of bartenders smoke. Beyond that, I don't wish to work at a gay p*rn shop. Am I opposed to gay p*rn? No, not really. Everybody needs to spank it sometimes, even gays. But I don't LIKE gay p*rn, so I don't WORK at a gay p*rn shop. I'm choosing not to be a gay p*rn seller, just like many, many people out there choose not to be bartenders or waitresses. Gay p*rn doesn't bother many other people, and those many people are perfectly happy to work in a gay p*rn store. You see where I'm going? Bars are a SPECIALTY business. Bars are not an office. Bars are the ANTITHESIS of an office. They are MADE for people to have a place to smoke indoors amongst strangers while they simultaneously drink themselves to death. Bartenders are not so stupid as not to realize this. That's why most bars SELL cigarettes. Does your office sell ciggarettes? No. Because your office is not a bar. It is not a specialty shop catering to people who like liquor and cigarettes, like a bar is. If people don't want others to be able to smoke near them, then let's make smoking illegal like weed. But enough of this half-ass crap where we pretend that smoke doesn't belong in bars. Smoke belongs in bars. Perhaps your pregnant wife does not belong in bars. Perhaps your kids don't belong in bars. Perhaps bartenders who hate smoke don't belong in bars. Perhaps you candy asses that are offended by smoke don't belong in bars. I don't know. What I do know is that smoke DOES belong in bars, because that's what we HAVE bars for. Don't like smoke? That's cool. Stay in your car, your home, your place of business, outside, in an airplane, in a train, in a restaurant, at the Cynthia Woods Mitchell Pavilion, in New York City, in church or the million other places where there's no smoking. Just let us have our one place that we thought up to give us a place to smoke while we drink and hit on women: Bars.
So, you are basically saying there is more stuff in the air worse than second hand smoke, so don't create laws to stop it? That sounds rational. "Hey man, I know my smoking is bothering you, but it's not as bad as the stuff the oil refinery is spitting out, so don't worry about it". That's like me telling someone I rob not to get mad because I could have shot them. You should not stop eliminating things that are bad for you simply because there are worse things out there (that are more than likely harder to eliminate).
You're an intelligent man, HayesStreet. I'm surprised that you would use an argument with enough holes in it to, uh, ventilate a nightclub. Being a smoker, which I have to assume you are, I doubt that you've asked a bartender if they can do anything about a smoke-filled club or bar. Or asked the manager of same that question. I have. The response is almost always, with a chuckle, "You've got to be kidding!" I doubt if you've listened to live music for almost 40 years, something you really love doing, and been upset that you can't hardly do it any longer, because the smoke affects you that much. That's where I'm at. It didn't use to bother me that much, but for several years now, it has. I think you know, inside, that your argument is full of holes, just because it's so ludicrous. But that's OK. It's an emotional subject. No one likes having their freedoms chipped away. I've seen plenty of mine disappear over the years. So I understand. But don't tell me I'm lazy and that's why there aren't smoke-free bars and nightclubs. It's those "lazy non-smokers" who are getting these regulations passed. Maybe you smokers, the minority, should organize yourselves so you can get some bars and nightclubs and eateries that are for "smokers only." Then you, the minority, can segregate yourselves and enjoy your habit. Problem solved. Then the segregated majority can integrate the bar and nightclub industry, enjoy it with the intelligent smokers who will adapt, and those who don't like it can stick to the "smokers only" places. I'm cool with that. Regarding Western Europe? I've spent over a year, on several trips going back to the mid-'60's, trying to figure Europeans out. I've decided that it's a lot of fun, that they're all different, from one country to the next, loony tribes of white folks doin' their thing and not being us, thank god. I think differences are cool. Watching the Texas I have known for my 50 odd years quickly becoming something more and more difficult to recognize, homogenized USA, makes me hope that the Europeans can keep doing things their own crazy way as long as they can. Do they smoke, compared to us, like crazy? No question about it. Why they have different patterns of disease than we do is an undeniable fact. I think diet and other factors play into that difference. I'm not sure how that affects this discussion, but it's interesting, no doubt about it. You allude that pollution might be the real culprit, and why don't we concentrate on fixing that? Well, what makes you think many of us non-smokers aren't just as passionate about that kind of air pollution?? One of the reasons I moved to Austin from Houston over 20 years ago was because I was allergic to the chemical plant pollutants. I had to have shots, the whole bit. When I moved here, I didn't have a bit of allergy problems for years, except when I visited Houston. And it still bothers me. Sorta depends on which way the wind blows, since most of my people are in southeast Houston. People who live that way will know what I'm talking about. As far as Fatty Fat? I was smoking and lovin' it in the '60's, same as your dad. I even worked some in nightclubs, going through a couple of packs during a late night, on occasion. I might have run into your dad, if he was into the hippie scene back then. Times change. You act like this is some small thing a few people are making a huge deal out of. The fact is, it's a huge deal that took a large number of people a few hundred years to figure out. Tobacco won't be made illegal. There won't be a Prohibition. You just have to adapt. I do, all the time. It wouldn't hurt to work some on your attitude, either, but I could use some work on mine, so big deal.
Gotta stop ya, pally. I'm specifically stating that we've been given the designated places to smoke. We tolerate our areas. You need to, as well. According to your analogy, people living in Baytown should be able to shut down ALL the refineries because they don't want to move. My answer? Baytownianistfolkswhatever should, and have every right to, move! There are already 95% of places where smokers cannot be! Leave the 5% alone, or soon enough, the whiner's will be on your back about something you don't feel is just, as well. STOP FASCISM!
Deckard, with all due respect, my dad wasn't a hippie. You were? Wow, times have changed in the "live and let live" society. First...... You do realize that a ban will mean that we smoker's will not be able to organize and establish bars and clubs that cater to smokers. That is my ENTIRE point. Y'all have taken a M.A.D.D. stance against second-hand smoke and made a tomfoolery of yourselves. Watch the TRUTH commercials. Hello, PETA? Uber-anti-smokers are the same. I'm not saying my smoking cannot kill me. I'm saying that my second hand smoke cannot kill you. If you think it can, you're hanging out at too many establishments that can kill you for any number of reasons. My attitude? Wow. You've not paid attention to the regular hangout, have you? I've got no animosity towards any of you. It is this blissful ignorance that astounds me.
You keep lumping us all together, just like so many of us tend to do that in political discussions. I have no problem at all with "smokers only" bars and clubs being legal. Not allowing them would be bizarre.
Then, let me again rephrase what we are talking about. A City ordinance that prohibits smoking IN ALL PUBLIC PLACES. Again, I've always smoked where I was supposed to. You and the other smoker-averse people have always known where we would be. What, exactly, is the problem?
Fatty Dude - I'm not twisting your words around. I directly quoted. No twist necessary. So far, I've only stated that we non-smokers have tolerated the stink. I have not discussed health issues, though the proposed ordinance is based on health issues. You say you want me to come up with "the substance"... as if it will be difficult for me to google the words "second hand smoke".... and surely, within a few seconds we have information from such sources as the The National Cancer Intitute, the U.S. Surgeon General, and the Environmental Protection Agency that clearly discusses the results of research by scientists in these departments. They have documented their conclusions which show the damages that are caused by prolonged exposer to Environmental Tobacco Smoke (ETS). READ: http://cis.nci.nih.gov/fact/3_9.htm It talks about ETS with such great statements as... "ETS can cause lung cancer in healthy adult nonsmokers" "Separating smokers and nonsmokers within the same air space may reduce but does not eliminate a nonsmoker's exposure to ETS" "the EPA classified ETS as a Group A carcinogen—a category reserved only for the most dangerous cancer-causing agents in humans" "Scientists estimate that ETS is responsible for approximately 3,000 lung cancer deaths per year among nonsmokers in the United States" "ETS has also been linked with other cancers, including those in the nasal sinus cavity, cervix, breast, and bladder" "Recent studies and the EPA's report point to a 20–percent increased risk of lung cancer in nonsmokers due to ETS." No - I'm not twisting these words around, either. You can read 'em for yourself. If you want to look at the actual study, you'll have to order the monograph from the government site. Certainly, I could provide a LOT more data, but somehow I suspect that you are going to attempt do discredit this information, and will be unwilling to accept the reliability or credibility of its source. So, something tells me I'm wasting my time. Ya know, guys... It's possible that all those scientists from all those organizations who spent all that time actually testing things... it's possible that every one of 'em is completely wrong... ...but it's a lot more probable that you are. -- droxford
And we have drox to thank for finally putting undeniable closure on this thread....thank God it's over!
Thank you. Sorry its bothering you. However, as I've already said: you have another mechanism to create a nonsmoking environment aside from prohibiting what someone else can do completely. As you indicate below, its this majority (Jeff says 3/4 Americans) that can easily affect the attitudes of these same managers of which you speak, WITHOUT prohibiting behavior of others. Now I might have as much effect asking a bartender in NY if I CAN smoke, because I recognize that as an individual I cannot exercise enough power in the market to warp the universe to my way of thinking. But if 3/4 of Americans really don't like it then they certainly CAN change the market. And if you took Jeff as a sample of how musicians hate smoke, I'd gather you could get music at these non-smoking venues as well. I can go play pool and drink and smoke, you can go watch music. Not that unreasonable. No, its a very few very fanatical that are getting these on ballots. While you (3/4ths) of Americans are at the voting booths its EASY for you to just BAN our behavior. It would be more trouble to use your market power, but infinitely more desirable because the world I want accomodates us both - the world you want doesn't. OK, but a BAN by the GOVERNMENT doesn't allow that. It removes the choice from the private citizens who OWN those establishments. Its relevant because there is the automatic assumption that this is a public health issue. Its not. Its a public issue but it is only loosely related to health as my example shows. If you want to decrease cancer etc, do what the Europeans do: ban work. Glad to hear you're against that too! But I doubt the majority of the nonsmoking population feels we should give up cars or barbque, despite the fact that in these examples I CANNOT AVOID the pollution (so called). With smoking you CAN avoid contact if you choose. Very few workplaces outside of the hospitality industry allow smoking. I'm ok with that. I'm not a smoker who has to run outside when I get off a 2 hour plane ride. Even the not smoking in restaurants is not too bad. But bars. Man, that just ain't right. I resent that I am being restricted from a legal activity (for now), and I think its ludicrous (your words) that you should be able to dictate to an owner whether or not there is smoking. This is not the same as other restrictions and the examples I've seen in this thread are silly (no, you can't go to the bathroom on the bar). This is a legal activity. You can restrict the age, like alcohol, fine. But saying not ANYWHERE is just wrong. Its too much of an infringement, especially when there is an alternative. Again take my example: I open a bar. I call it SMOKERS (big sign). I only hire smokers. I let people smoke in my bar. Why should you be able to come and tell me -'no, those of us in the majority want to come to SMOKERS, but we don't want you to smoke.' "But you guys are 3/4th's of the population," I say. "Can't you scrape enough money together to open NONSMOKERS?" 'Nope, you say. We outlawed you instead. Much easier - just check the little box and off you go!' Don't you think its reasonable that before you nonsmokers unite and ban our perfectly legal activity that you unite and try to change the market? Shouldn't you at least do that FIRST? And doesn't it seem a bit odd that all the bar and restaurant owners are in the 25% of the population that does not support these bans? Almost all of them? I have to say I'm shocked that NONE of the 3/4th's of the population that support these restrictions OWNS A BAR OR RESTAURANT!!! Some kind of evil big tobacco conspiracy? And we haven't even gotten to the fact that smoking is cool.
I don't smoke or drink, yet i don't care if people do smoke or not. Everyone has a choice, the only problem i have is for people to smoke next to me because it's their choice to for their clothes to smell bad not mine, yet i leave a place where people smoke and i leave smelling like cigarettes, that sucks. I also can't stand it when grown ups are smoking in a car full of children, but that's just me.
Not if it is going to finish this way...... drox: As I've said before, scientists on these research projects do their data based on funding by lobbying groups. Period. If I were a scientist. Wait, if I were an investment analyst PAID by a firm who was looking for some "persuasive" judgements on a particular enterprise, I can be pretty sure I could come up with some "sound" advice. I truly do apologize if you think that second hand smoke is killing you. Do you listen to country music at all? Here's your sign.
BTW Hayes, appreciate the help. Most times, I'm the only one trying to debate this properly. Hell, I've been at outings. A hell of a lot of us smoke! I guess I'm the only one who still feels justified in doing so. Especially if I'm doing it where I'm supposed to.
