There are several reasons why reparations to Blacks for slavery is a bad idea. 1. The U.S. government did not initiate the slave trade. Portugal and Spain did. Sue them. 2. Slavery has been around since people have been around. Of course, it was never on the scale of the "slave trade" during the colonial period. But, Africans sold other Africans into slavery. Sue Nigerians, Conganese, etc. 3. When the American colonies began to become heavily involved in the slave trade (1640) they were under British rule. It wasn't until 136 years later that the U.S. declared its independence from England. A mere 30 years later, the U.S. passed its first legislation banning the slave trade. Sue the British. 4. The U.S. government fought a war to abolish slavery. If losing men and killing your own countymen isn't payment enough, then I don't know what is. Sue the Confederate government (of course it doesn't exist). The Japanese-Americans were given reparations after their ordeal in WWII, but it was our CURRENT government that put them in war camps, therefore it was our CURRENT government's responsibility to accept the consequences for their actions. The native population in North America weren't given reparations. Heck the indigenous population in Latin America (Central and South America) lost approximately NINETY PERCENT of its population to disease and brutal outright genocidal programs. Those people have never received reparations. ------------------------- Don't get me wrong. I think Black people in America are at a distinct disadvantage in a lot of circumstances. Reparations just aren't the answer. My wife is black as is my mother-in-law, two sister-in-laws, three brother-in-laws, four nephews (and soon to be a niece!), and even my own children will be black. This does not change the fact that I am against reparations. It does however give me more insight into race relations in America today, and southern America at that (Texas). I know race relations aren't as good as people try to say they are. I know it, because every time a person who isn't black feels like saying something negative about a black person (and applying it to the entire Blace race), it seems like they automatically tell me. Where I work I bet not one person would admit to being a racist, but I've had to listen to over 50% of them use racial slurs day in and day out. It is in fact a rarity to find a white person who never uses racial slurs. I can count on one hand the number of people at my job that I consider to not be racial biased. The fact is, money is not the answer. I don't know what the answer is, or if there ever will be one. But, I feel reparations would do more to harm race relations in the U.S. than to help them. I do feel that an offcial apology (Why the hell didn't Clinton give one????) would be a step in the right direction. But, even that would have to be carefully drawn up and tactfully delivered. ------------------ DREAMer's Rocket Page
Agreed. My family history is well documented to generations prior to the American Revolution. When the Civil War came around, (approximately) half fought for the North, half fought for the South. Not one of my ancestors ever owned any slaves. I did manage to lose quite a few ancestors during the Civil War. That said, I don't believe I owe anybody anything. ------------------ "We got f*cking smashed every day. And then when we came here to Beverly Hills, we had drugs, we had chicks, we had orgies. I thought I'd died and gone to f*cking Rome" ---Ozzy Osbourne, on the early days of Black Sabbath [This message has been edited by Lynus302 (edited March 26, 2001).]
I'm all for reparations. Any people still living who were once slaves in the U.S. should be given financial reparations. Of course, my family was still in England and France during the slave trade (we didn't get to the States until decades after the Civil War), and I've never owned any slaves, personally. I would, of course, be exempt from any payments. The thing is, most of the folks I've seen who truly back reparations to the black community because of slavery really want more investment in the black community in the form of block grants, enterprise zones, etc. rather than direct cash payments to African-Americans. We could develop a program that would allow for better investment in inner cities and schools that would probably get a good deal of support and achieve many of the same things that "reparations" would. But when these things are couched as reparations, it turns people off. The vast majority of people are against the idea of reparations for slavery. ------------------ Houston Sports Board Help Finance My Movie - Buy A T-Shirt or Make a Donation [This message has been edited by mrpaige (edited March 26, 2001).]
Wow. I thought that Britain and France played a large part in the slave trade. Thanks for reminding me they didnt. ------------------
Wasn't it our current government, or actually country that had to have a CIVIL WAR to get rid of slavery? Spain and Britain or France weren't part of the Civil War. Half the country actually went to war to keep slavery. And then they STILL discriminated for decades. And why would Clinton have to give an apology!? ------------------ Meow! [This message has been edited by RocksMillenium (edited March 26, 2001).]
The U.S. Govt. did not fight the war for slavery. It just so happened to be an issue. The North were not any more right than the South. The only reason why the North did not want slavery is because they did not need it. It was socially acceptable to have slaves in the South and they did it for business reasons, not so much they were racial. ------------------ Nice guys finish last ... and im surely not going to finish last!
DREAMer, Has this come up recently somewhere or did you just bring this up for general discussion? The US did not initiate slavery, but it was slow to abolish it (practically, not symbolically) and even after abolishment the US promoted a pseudo-slavery share-cropping system that only perpetuated racial issues. Continuing into the 20th century, then the Supreme Court establishing the separate but equal farce and denegrating a percentage of the population for no real reason. The slavery stigma still looms over our society and dictates our relationships, our justice, and our class-structure. The sad thing about raparations is that it could have the potential to do a great deal of harm. It would only give more ammunition to racists and bring closet racists out with the whole attitude of, "why are these (racal slur of any kind)'s takin my money!" Then you get conspiracy theories (taking over the world, leading to Satan, etc) and possibly violence acted out. So much more is needed than reparations. Ugh...makes me frustrated. I realize this is not really in response or agreement to your post...but, well, I don't know. ------------------ Whitey will pay.
Space Ghost, a long time ago we had a pretty neat discussion about the causes of the civil war. During that thread, I learned that the 'just one of many issues' line of reasoning that I grew up w/ as well was wrong. If you want to reread that, just look up SC declaration of secession via the bbs search. DREAMer, I'm usually not privy to the reparations dialogue anymore (since I live in UT) but I pretty much agree with you on all accounts. There are certainly too many weird issues to work out an effective reparation structure. Also, it seems as if affirmative action programs make reparation discussions moot. There are equality based programs that exist... I also wonder why Clinton didn't do a little bombshell as he walked out of the door by offering an apology... at least Bush wouldn't have been able to take it back. LOL. ------------------ (===)
Reparations are bad for seven independent reasons. No particular order: 1. Our society holds people individually accountable for their actions. The criminal justice system is based on this, as is our entire culture of individual rights. Doing this, would mean acknowledging cultural accountability... which doesn't really work metaphysically. 2. Doing this treats people as a CLASS. Race is, and should be, absolutely irrelevant to the law; it isn't a valid method of classification. I believe in economic aid to the underpriviledged, but that doesn't follow class line. 3. Where would one stop the reparations? There isn't a clear bright-line. How about women? They were treated as slaves for MILLENIA. What about indentured servants? What about the Irish, who LIVED AT LEVELS BELOW SLAVES slaves upon immigration. Do the Italians owe the Jews reparations? 4. Non-slave owners... what about those who immigrated here from Japan? They didn't have much to do with slvaery, and can't be held accountable BY ANY DEFINITION. 5. Perpetuates racism by making a culture of victimization and making African-Americans a "target" of new accusations and resentment. 6. Defies law. If I find out that your great-great-great grandfather robbed mine, does that mean that I have the right to claim your property? of course not. 7. Post facto morality. The truth is that morality is defined by contemporaneous necessity and evolving patterns of dignity commensurate with economic principles. Basically, we're as nice as we can afford to be. This isn't to say that exploitation is good, but rather that social progression takes place on a linear level, in many ways. Leaps do occur, but there's more there that's systematic than one initially thinks. Reparations defy this reality, by forcing moral codes and perceptual frameworks on an event that really didn't exist at the time. Hope someone disagrees with me. It's an interesting issue... I attended a lecture once with one of the leading advocates of reparations here at BC once, Arthur somebody, and he was persuasive... I just didn't agree in the end. ------------------ Boston College - Big East -East Division Regular Season Champs Worst to First in 2001! [This message has been edited by haven (edited March 26, 2001).]
I meant during the American slave trade. If I am going to be taxed for reparations for slaves, it should be through Britain and France (though I don't know that anyone in my family ever owned slaves. And even if they did, I didn't). ------------------ Houston Sports Board Help Finance My Movie - Buy A T-Shirt or Make a Donation
I can quite safely say that I am one of those few that never uses a racial slur, as are all the members of my immediate family. ------------------
RocksMillenium, Because (some) people are calling for Bush to give an apology. But, Bush is a member of the Republican party, the same party Lincoln was a member of. Also, Clinton was supposed to be this big time Democrat man of the people, so why didn't he give an apology and make all his constituents happy? ---------------------- rim, I have heard it discussed on TV recently. My wife and a friend of hers saw a program on 20/20 about it. I saw a similar program sometime last year on the subject. So, no nothing here caused me to post it. I guess it was more for general discussion. My only regret is that there probably won't be nearly enough representation from the "pro-reparation" side. ---------------------- S_F_r, I'm not saying you are a liar, but this is the same thing just about every person at my job woud say if asked. ------------------ DREAMer's Rocket Page [This message has been edited by DREAMer (edited March 26, 2001).]
I assume this thread exists because of the recent article about the ads running in college newspapers arguing against reparations and the difficulty they had in getting run. I talked with my wife about it then and she pointed out that it is such a non-issue that college campuses are pretty much the only place you'll see this thing discussed. I guess she was wrong. ------------------ RealGM Gafford Art Artisan Cakes
Originally posted by DREAMer: It is in fact a rarity to find a white person who never uses racial slurs. I guess it depends on what constitutes a racial slur. I can't recall the last time I used a racial slur (I know I did in my youth), and I can't recall the last time I heard a white person use a racial slur. But maybe there are racial slurs that I am not aware are racial slurs that are used in my presence all the time. ------------------ Houston Sports Board Help Finance My Movie - Buy A T-Shirt or Make a Donation
I'm not sure I've ever used a racial slur in my life. I don't THINK I have. I have said things that are culturally insensitive... like using "gay" as a perjorative. I didn't even know what I was doing until a gay friend pointed it out. In a debate round, I referred to Putin as a "vodka-loving crazy," and the judge considered it an ethnic slur. I think most of us are sometimes unaware of the hidden ignorances that we possess. I just try to find them, and eliminate them in myself. ------------------ Boston College - Big East -East Division Regular Season Champs Worst to First in 2001!
DREAMer, I find it interesting that you say it is a rarity to find a white person who never uses racial slurs. In my experience, African - Americans seem to use racial slurs with much higher frequency than whites, both in a familiar manner to other AAs (eg. whats up my *****z) and in reference to whites (eg. honkey, cracker, etc.) ------------------ "We messed with the Bull, and we got the horns." -- Larry Brown "quote" from AirBullard.com
Hydra, What is your "experience"? I mean, do you live in Compton or Montana? Are you white, black, hispanic, other? Everyone's perception is different. I am a white guy, therefore I don't get to hear much of the racial degrading by blacks directed at whites. By that I mean, usually the black people I'm around are family and friends, and they don't say those sort of things around me (if they do at all). But, because I am white other white people are for some reason compelled to tell me every racist thought that pops into their stupid ass heads. Also, when a Black person says, "What's up *****?" or "***** please". Those are not racial slurs. They are not trying to demean (slur) the person they are talking about or to because of their race. Whether or not black people should use that word is debatable (and has been debated here before), but it is obvious that the word is not being used as a racial slur in that context. And, have you really heard black people call whites "honkies" or "crackers"? I never have, at least I can't remember hearing those particular words. ------------------ DREAMer's Rocket Page [This message has been edited by DREAMer (edited March 26, 2001).]
I am a cracker ... I mean a white person living in Folsom, CA. I have definitely heard the term cracker used, have you ever seen Chris Rock or Dave Chappel? And I did not mean that African-Americans were trying to demean each other when using those words, only that they said them. I didn't know that the words could be re-classified based on intent. Sadly, when a level of racial tension exists, as it does in America today, it can bring out the worst in people. Fortunatly there are many, myelf included that don't give a crap about race. I frankly don't care if people want to use racial slurs, because I believe in freedom of expression. If someone calls me a cracker it doesn't bother me. To me it just is a display of ignorance when someone does not look beyond your appearance to your actions when forming their opinions. ------------------ "We messed with the Bull, and we got the horns." -- Larry Brown "quote" from AirBullard.com
I haven't heard anyone use the word "Honkie" except on 1970s television (especially The Jeffersons). ------------------ Houston Sports Board
haven, Not that I disagree with you, but #1, 2, and 5 apply to Affirmative Action programs as well, but as a country, we don't have a major problem with those programs. (Those are, however, some of the reasons that I am against Aff Action) ------------------ http://www.swirve.com ... more fun than a barrel full of monkeys and midgets.
