Religous beliefs-debate

DREAMer,

Since you responded to something I wrote, I will respond to something you wrote.

You say that you do not trust religion because it is "of man and fallable" and if you question anything the Church says...then how can you even be a Christian? how can you trust the New Testament, for example, that was compiled, edited, ammended, etc by the leaders of the Catholic church many many years after the epistles, gospels, etc were even written?

How can you trust that the Church chose the correct gospels to include? How can you trust the human translators over the years who may or may not have altered meaning?

Just curious....

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Whitey will pay.

 

There are several references to "a woman's place" both in the home and in church in the New Testament.

Older women are advised to:

"train the younger women to live quietly, to love their husbands and their children, and to be sensible and clean minded, spending their time in their own homes, being kind and obedient to their husbands..." Titus 2:4-5

"I never let women teach men or lord it over them. Let them be silent in your church meetings. Why? Because God made Adam first, and afterwards he made Eve. And it was not Adam who was fooled by Satan, but Eve, and sin was the result. So God sent pain and suffering to women when their children are born, but he will save their souls if they trust in him, living quiet, good and loving lives." 1 Timothy 2:12-15

My mom actually left the church after a conservative minister at the church we were attending told her she couldn't teach men. Keep in mind she has a masters degree in education and was, at the time, the head of secondary guidance counseling in HISD.

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And then, depression set in...

 

VOR: With all due respect, there were plenty of "holy" leaders that came along well before either Mohammed or Jesus. Abraham supposedly spoke directly with God, which is what led to the ten commandments.

Buddha, Confucious and many other eastern "holy men" came long before the birth of Christ.

Jesus, himself, was supposedly the Son of God incarnate in human form. This too was before Mohammed.

The Bagavad Gita, an important religious text for Hindus, was supposedly a conversation between God and a man on the battlefield.

Defining what is "holy" and what isn't is tricky business. You certainly have every right to choose the belief most suitable for yourself but saying that the story of Jesus is any more or less believable than Mohammed having a conversation with God or Buddha's enlightenment under the Bohdi tree or Abraham recieving the ten commandments on Mt. Siani seems pretty ridiculous.

Christians believe what they believe because they have faith just like you do. Arguing logic or believability against someone armed only with faith will get you nowhere. That is what faith and belief are all about.

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And then, depression set in...

 

if religion is manmade, why do you follow commandments at all? sure fornication is a sin in the bible, but if a statement of belief is all you need to goto heaven, then WHY NOT get drunk stoned and laid. youre going to heaven regardless.

see this is exactly the point. over time, people change and re-evaluate your scriptures and adapt them and evolve them. this is in no way upholding the Word of God, but rather, editing and deleting His Word to fit your own whims. If this is the case, how can we take the book in its entirety and form a belief system around it?

what defines that relationship though? is it just a declaration? or do you have to prove it through some action. if you have to prove it through some action, then youve just contradicted yourself (all you have to do is believe in Jesus' salvation to goto heaven) and if not, then you're statement about catholics going to hell is wrong.

now about this forgiveness bit:
God is Forgiving in all religions (i believe)
yes, man is born weak, we sin, but the whole point is, we try our best. we are always striving to please God. if we do that, God tells us (over and over again) that He will forgive our shortcomings. however, there has to be a small fear, like hell, to keep you in check. otherwise, everyone would go crazy, bcause by simply 'believing' in jesus, theyve got a get out of hell free card. belief and religion explain the purpose of this life, this doctrine of christianity fails to do that.

and real quick, about the Prophets. Islam believes in all of them. from Adam to Moses, Noah, Abraham, David, JESUS, and Muhammad. they were all Prophets of God who brought the same message. However, their message has not been preserved. For instance, what Jesus preached has not been preserved, the BIble has been changed and changed over time. Romans 3:7 (I THINK THATS THE RIght verse) quotes paul as saying its ok for him to spread falsehood as long as it gets more people to think about God!!
Our stance is that the Quran is the final revelation from God, which confirms everything the previous messengers brought.




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and thats why they call him the voice of reason

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president of the sleepy floyd to hall of fame club.

http://www.it-is-truth.org

 

Catholic belief (and I believe all Christian belif) is that the Bible is an "inspired" work. Therefore, while there may be many writers, God is the only author.



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Succint, accurate and intelligent.



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but most christian scholars admit that the authors of a lot of the works are in fact unknown
-ill try to post some references for this later if you want, but a lot of ppl are even in doubt as to who wrote the gospels.

also, about jeffs comment on faith and belief. if the faith and belief is supposed to govern our existence and lives, it has to make some sense, you have to be able to prove its divinely inspired or whatever. if i believe the Quran is the book of God, i have to be able to prove it, and only after that can i be sure my belief is right.
just like, if the bible has so many authors and changes, how can we know its the book of God? if its not... then how can you be sure your belief is right?

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president of the sleepy floyd to hall of fame club.

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there are *many* writers, but its really just *one* writer. is anyone else just slightly confused about this one?




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president of the sleepy floyd to hall of fame club.

http://www.it-is-truth.org

 

VOR, is there a kitty that walks across your keyboard everytime you type a post?

 

That was too long to quote entirely. But I wanted to address some of the things you addressed about what I previously addressed.

Election: You apparently do not fall into the camp that believes in Election. However, to say it's not a Christian concept isn't fair. I can tell you at least my denomination (that is, the denomination of the church I attend), the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA, not to be confused with PCUSA) does believe in Election. No one argues that it is essential to believe this for salvation, but it is a very common idea in Calvinist and other conservative Christian circles. And, especially from the Epistles of Paul, it seems to me what the Scriptures dictate.

As for women speaking in church, I'm referring to 1 Corinthians 14:34. Here's an excerpt: (http://www.bible.org/cgi-bin/netbible.pl?book=1co&chapter=14)

As in all the churches of the saints, 14:34 the women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak. Rather, let them be in submission, as in fact the law says. 14:35 If they want to find out about something they should ask their husbands at home, because it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in church. 14:36 Did the word of God begin with you, or did it come to you alone?

Actually, my comments about that came out weird. I started to talk about women preaching and then switched gears when I remembered this passage, but I didn't clean up all my language. If you look at the link, it does have a footnote that explains this is probably not a complete prohibition. My point was NOT, however, that Christianity says women can't speak in church; it was a discourse on what churches are faced with when they have a piece of Scripture that runs against the grain of modern society.

Now back to the predestination complaint of yours: Why would Jesus want people to evangelize of they was Election? If you'll remember this is not my religion; I'm just very familiar with Calvinist doctrine. But, it's too easy to say it's a contradiction in the doctrine. I believe my minister would say that, though the believers are Elected, they still come to Christ within the context of this world and that evangelists are the vehicle of communication. If you fall down on the job, someone else will do it, but that doesn't excuse you from the work that God has set for you.

Again, this thing about Election is simply a denominational disagreement.



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Perhaps this quote from www.dictionary.com regarding "author" will help to explain the distinction (note that my original quote was that there were many writers but only one author. You misquoted me by saying "one writer")

"The verb author, which had been out of use for a long period, has been rejuvenated in recent years with the sense ?to assume responsibility for the content of a published text.? As such it is not quite synonymous with the verb write; one can write, but not author, a love letter or an unpublished manuscript, and the writer who ghostwrites a book for a celebrity cannot be said to have ?authored? the creation."

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1. The different versions of the Bible represent different attempts to translate the original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts into contemporary language. Different translators took different approaches to the task of translation, and so the Bible versions will often differ somewhat in precise wording and style. Some versions are also based on differing primary texts. (www.bible.com)

2. I am not a Bible scholar so I may not present this as well as someone who is. The Old Testament dealt with God's original "covenant" with man. The New Testament, deals with God's New "covenant" with man that sort of begins with the introduction of John the Baptist, followed by the story of Jesus Christ and finally the future as per Revelations.

3. I suspect when Christ comes back to earth then perhaps a "Newer Testament" will be written and then there will be a Bible in 3 parts.

4. The Bible is generally thought to have been written over the course of about 1500 years, from around 1450 B.C. (time of Moses) to around 100 A.D.

If you have been inspired by God to actually write a book for the Bible, then I would suggest you talk to a priest or other Christian leader to start the ball rolling about getting your book added.

You can find a lot more answers to your Bible questions at www.bible.com (among others).

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To be honest, I wish more people would. I had a Methodist professor in college who was in disbelief that inspired works of God stopped being written in the first half of the first millenium. He was a pretty conservative guy (I was at the time as well), but he was absolutely adamant that the chuch's unwillingness to accept the possibility that other books should be considered for inclusion was a terrible mistake.

Considering the fact that the printing press didn't even exist before the end of the first millenium, it seems logical to assume that with greater access to writing utensils, educational skills and printing devices, someone somewhere must've written something inspired by God.

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And then, depression set in...

 

rim,

Fair enough.

If the church left out some of the teaching of Christ (accidently or on purpose), I don't think His message is altered in any major way. I mean, I don't think they could purposefully misinterpret or alter what his disciples wrote without easily being called on it. Plus, there's a sense of Divine influence in assembling the Word of God.

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Jeff,

I'm not sure Timothy or Titus were quoting Christ here. It seems more like a carry over from the Old Testament teachings to me. Especially because two versus before that (1 Timoth 2:9) he says that women shouldn't "broider" their hair or wear jewelry. Those are not things that are at the base of Christianity. Those are ways for Christians to strive to live, and they are obviously infuenced by their close relation to Judaism and the Old Testament.

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jamma34,

Good questions, but easily answered.

1.) The Ten Commandments are not man-made. God gave them to Moses. But, the Ten Commandments play two parts.
A.) They give guidelines on how man is supposed to live.
B.) They are an example of how man cannot live (with or without God).

2.) I could get drunk, stoned, and laid and still go to Heaven. I do get drunk. I've never done drugs. I am married. I try to live a good life, the way God wants us to. One reason a Christian should live a good life, is because they are a representative of Christianity. To live a sinful life is to give a poor representation of Christ.


You're Muslim, right? Do you sin? Are you going to Heaven? Question answered.

Do Muslims believe in the teachings of Moses? He's in the Bible too you know. But, to answer your question. The Bible is a larger version of the Ten Commandments, sort of. It is a book showing how man should live. And, it contains the teachings of Christ necessary to get into Heaven. Other than that, people can try to change whatever they want. What serious alterations can be made in the basic theme?

I already said that I cannot fully define a "relationship" with God. But, to me it would be an acceptance of Jesus as your Saviour, and that's it. Accepting Christ would obviously not be as easy as just saying you accept Him, it would take a personal transformation of some sort. Why is being a Catholic a ticket into Heaven? I did not say that. Just because you're Catholic (or any other sect, or religion for that matter) doesn't mean you believe.

Believing in Christ as the one true saviour is not easy. How does Christianity fail to explain the purpose of this life? This life is a test, a test of belief. If you do not believe you fail the test. If you do, you pass.

If you do not believe that Jesus was the Son of God, and was the one true saviour, then you do not believe in Jesus. You may believe a prohpet (man) existed and called himself Jesus, but you do not believe in His message.

 

I'm not sure Timothy or Titus were quoting Christ here. It seems more like a carry over from the Old Testament teachings to me. Especially because two versus before that (1 Timoth 2:9) he says that women shouldn't "broider" their hair or wear jewelry. Those are not things that are at the base of Christianity. Those are ways for Christians to strive to live, and they are obviously infuenced by their close relation to Judaism and the Old Testament.

Timothy and Titus were not written by those two people. Those books are letters to them from Paul who wrote Romans, etc. He was speaking about the formation of the church and its practices.

I agree that it sounds like a throwback, but they are still followed very strictly in many churches.

BTW: I realized I said Abraham got the commandments. DUH!!! It was Moses. My bad.

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And then, depression set in...

[This message has been edited by Jeff (edited April 06, 2001).]

 

first bobrek, i misquoted you, and i apologize.

dreamer, i think youve just proved my point.
you say that all you need is belief. does that belief require action, or not. so youre not a good representative of christianity, are you going to goto hell for it? according to you, no. so how then do you prove your faith? is it by doing good deeds? well them that contradicts what youve said before, that christianity ONLY requires you to believe in jesus.
as a muslim, i do not know if im going to heaven. i try to do good and stay away from bad. its all based on works. God is Forgiving, and as long as i make a real effort to do as much good as i can, then He will forgive me for my sins. you say youhave to believe in jesus, how do you prove tht faith? is it a declaration, or is it action. and if its action, then why are there no bad consequences for that action?
in islam, you have to first make the declaration, and then prove that declaration by acting on it. First declare that there is no God except God (ie no sons, daugthers, partners, nothing) and Muhammad is His Messneger. then you prove it by praying to God and giving charity, etc.

as for the "overall message" argument:
you miss the point here. you admit that the bible has human adultertions. how do you know for a fact that the overall message hasnt been changed?? if other bits and pieces have been changed, how do we know the rest hasnt. for instance, i dont think Jesus ever claimed to be the son of God, thats just some stuff paul started later on.

now as for this version/translation business. there is a DISTINCT difference between a VERSION and a translation. a translation, is when youve got the hebrew there and english side by side, and different authors translate it differently. a different VERSION is wen you ADD OR DELETE STUFF -- thus altering the word of God. for example, the king james version has that verse "the Father the Word and the Spirit are three, and those three are one" (something like that)
however,
this verse is TAKEN OUT Of the revised standard version because they said it wasnt written by an inspired author!!!!
ADDING AND DELETING things are not 'translations' its changing the words of God. even if there is only one instance of it, then it casts doubt on the entire book.
why is it allowed for christians to eat pork when its in leviticus that swine is forbidden?

as for the Quran. God is the author. He revealed the Quran to Muhammad and it was written down. by the way, its also worth mentioning, im not sure how much of the Bible we can actually trust, it was passed down as songs and folk stories for a couple of hundred years before anything was written down. not a single utterance of Jesus was written down while he was alive.
the Quran on the other hand, it was revealed to Muhammad who taught it to those around him and the literate ones wrote it down. everyone memorized it. even to this day, go up to any of the 1.2 billion muslims alive, from any country, they are all reciting the same quran, in the same arabic language, same as when it was originally revealed. no changes.
same thing with the stuff Muhammad has said, his companions would write down what he said and memorize his sayings (this occured while he was still alive).

jv - the end of your post you talk about a message board.. were you referring to the psuedo board ive got on my page? http://members.fortunecity.com/omar369 -if so, we can start the religion talk there, and we can organize it out into different subjects etc to make it easier to follow. also, no one really posts there except some of my friends, it will be nice to have an actual discussion. if you are talking about someother msg board and i misunderstood, lemme know so i can edit this part out so i dont feel like that big of an idiot.



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president of the sleepy floyd to hall of fame club.

http://www.it-is-truth.org