For the sheer fun of irritating people who feel the same as OP, I would like to join you, and I'm not Muslim.
This is clearly just ATW making another "Can't we just exterminate all Muslims" thread. He hates Islam and Muslims. He hates the religion, the people, displays of the religion, etc. We should do ourselves a favor and pretend he doesn't exist.
What do you know about bill of rights in Germany? You think there is no freedom of religion in Germany? You would be wrong.
Is there a bill of rights in Germany? I have no doubt they have some legal statement in regard to religious and political freedom but I doubt it is nearly as encompassing as the Bill of Rights.
I did some quick reading up on the Basic Law of the Federal Republic of Germany and it looks like they do guarentee quite a bit of religious freedom on par with the US. I withdraw my previous comment as I was mistaking Germany with France which is wrestling with how much religious expression is allowed in public.
It makes me pretty uncomfortable because it's usually really awkward, mostly because of how out of place it is. I would feel the same way with any other kind of compulsive behavior. When I see things like, pray for ****, I get mad because money in almost 100% of cases would be better served than just thinking about it. Prayer doesn't fix Haiti, aid does.
I think the OP living in Germany has a different perception about Islam and Muslims (the issue of the growing Turkish population and its effect on German culture or the increased "islamization" of Europe). His opinion is one I heard a lot in places like Norway and Nederland. IMO, Muslims in Europe on average are 'ostentatious' according to you in their public display of religion. Many tell me the clerics are more radical there as well. If some Muslim was praying on a busy sidewalk in Frankfurt during rush hour, I would also assume he was pushing his faith down your throat since I'd hope he'd be more sensitive to people like the OP given the current PR issues with Islam. Most Muslims pray quietly and usually in the privacy of their homes, offices, mosques, some quiet corner in the library, etc. I think Islamic tradition (not the Quran) suggests people to find clean/sheltered spots to pray or ones where people wouldn't feel restricted in movement even if in the middle of a commute with time running out.
iirc, atw/sjc lives in switzerland now. btw, i don't think you'll find rhianna with her arse up in the air performing a pdp (public display of prayer) anytime, jackie. or the demonstration of humilty/power of humilty maybe? and your view on non-religious, but spiritual folx (for rocket river)? you know... like some higher being or something?
I'll have a personal meet & greet with her in about 9 days from now, no kidding . And thanks to the posters who try to understand my point of view. No, this is not an "anti-religion" or "anti-Islam" thread. I respect everyone's right to believe what they want and to pray when- and wherever they want. It's just when I get this "push-it-down-your-throat" feeling that I feel bothered by it. As long as it is done sincerely and discreetly, I have no problem with it. I knew when I started this thread that my opinion wasn't going to be popular. I find the responses interesting.
Anyone have a problem with this behavior if it was non-religious, sitting in the lotus position, public meditation? I don't pray, but can equivocate prayer with meditation. It harms no one. I admire the religious devotion and dedication.
If I ever catch someone in the lotus position in public I will go ballistic and become violent. I can't think of anything more offensive.
we get it, you like to pms and w**** all the attention you can get. You don't like muslims and you want it to be known even when they aren't doing anything to you. You don't like to look at it, well you know what, the KKK don't like looking at blacks maybe they are right too.
It is not that hard to understand when there are people that assume things about people due to religious affiliation and people finding prayer offensive...go figure.
You know, this thread brings up some interesting points that I have never thought of. As a Muslim, it is more difficult to pray in public without constantly thinking about the fact that people are watching you (for obvious reasons). I have no idea about European Muslims, but I can attest that American Muslims try to pray in a quiet and secluded place. If necessity arises and you find yourself in a public place, you find a secluded corner (sorry ATW, we try not to block traffic.) As for official rulings on the matter of where it is OK to pray: I believe that there is none. Anywhere is OK, however Muslims are not allowed to cross directly in front of another Muslim who is praying. The praying individual must try to gently prevent the other individual from crossing in front of them, and the crossing individual must try to go around them. For this reason, Muslims try to find a place where it will be unlikely that someone will cross in front of them. This is mostly true when there are a few individuals, not a massive gathering like in the picture posted. I guess this European attitude against "public displays of religion" explains a lot about France's attitudes towards hijabs and Switzerland's attitude against minarets?
Haha :grin:. Great post - summarizes the posts of Refman and some of the Muslim posters. It's hilarious how some religious people become aggressive (when their religion should be about being peaceful) as soon as they feel that someone is questioning (not attacking, questioning) part of the way they feel they should exercise their religion. shastarocket - interesting information. I wouldn't say that this is necessarily a European attitude, I would say it's just me.
