Ok, I thought you were claiming that on Christians could reach this state or something. How nobody be able to achieve righteousness sufficient for salvation? I am not familiar with that. I don't even know what "salvation" really is I guess.
From the Catholic Encyclopedia website: "Salvation has in Scriptural language the general meaning of liberation from straitened circumstances or from other evils, and of a translation into a state of freedom and security (I Kings, xi, 13; xiv, 45; II Kings, xxiii, 10; IV Kings, xiii, 17). At times it expresses God's help against Israel's enemies, at other times, the Divine blessing bestowed on the produce of the soil (Is., xlv, 8). As sin is the greatest evil, being the root and source of all evil, Sacred Scripture uses the word "salvation" mainly in the sense of liberation of the human race or of individual man from sin and its consequences. We shall first consider the salvation of the human race, and then salvation as it is verified in the individual man. " In the context of the book of Judges, the people were being saved from oppression by their neighbors. In the broader Christian context "salvation" generally means to be saved from the consequences of sin. That consequence being death and eternal seperation from God. The reason for this consequence is that some of the characteristics of God is that He is perfectly Holy and Just and sin makes us unqualified to enter into His presence. If a person were without any sin at all, they would not deserve death and would be able to enjoy God's presence. That would be righteousness sufficient for salvation. Of course, no one's that perfect. Not even close. If one little white lie back when you were four disqualified you, it's a little overwhelming to think of all we've done on top of that. In addition, the Bible makes it clear that God is largely concerned with where are hearts are. That is why Jesus points to lust as being just as bad as adultery in that it is judged against you as a sin. Unfortunately, that would mean that the whole world is going to be damned. But God is also merciful and loving. He resolves the dilema of punishing people for their sins yet wanting to be merciful through Jesus. God Himself, in the person of Jesus Christ, lived a perfect and sinless life. God is the only one who could have done that. But then if Jesus was without sin, he did not need to suffer the punishment for sin: death. By being crucified Jesus took on the punishment for sin that we deserve. In order to get credit for what He did, all that is required is faith in Jesus Christ and His death and resurrection. That, in a nutshell, is what Christianity is about. But it is what leads us to the debate that Kate brought up. Reformed theologians believe that all of mankind is so sinful that even if they are presented with the opportunity for eternal life (salvation) through faith in Jesus Christ, they would say, "no thanks." So God chooses some people, referred to as the elect, whose hearts he softens and brings the circumstances and individuals into their life that bring them to a point where they become Christians. The other view is that we are all completely free to make the choice, some of us choose it and others don't. Hope that helps.
Thanks. From a Christian standpoint I would have to disagree with the concept of predestination. If people are predestined, why would Jesus bother to talk to large crowds? He talked about the Sower and the seeds. People's minds have to be ready to understand the message of peace to be able to make that choice. The Kingdom of heaven lies within all people and all beings. Salvation lies within. iIt s present at the present moment, we have to just to let it out.
In Ephesians Paul is talking to a Christian church. He is talking to the body of Christ in Ephesus. God knew that some fish would be caught and that they would become the body of Christ. That was predestined and that is what I read him to be talking about. He’s not referring to individuals being predestined. He gave individuals the choice to be part of the body of Christ, but it was predestined that a body of Christ would be formed and to fulfill God’s purpose. That’s pretty straight forward to me. Frankly, it doesn’t read at all to me like he was talking to individuals. I don’t find these passages ambiguous on this point. I believe it was asked earlier whether God calls all people? John 12: 27"Now my heart is troubled, and what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. 28Father, glorify your name!" 29Then a voice came from heaven, "I have glorified it, and will glorify it again." The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him. 30Jesus said, "This voice was for your benefit, not mine. 31Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." 33He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die. None of this is inconsistent with man having to choose to accept God’s call. It is a justification by faith, not works. The choice is to say yes to God. God calls everyone. (I would have previously said that he calls almost everyone, but in light of the John 12 passage I’ll amend that). That is the free will he gave us. He knew many would answer and would become the body of Christ that will fulfill his purposes, but if he knew which specific individuals would be called then the whole thing becomes a predetermined, meaningless charade. If a parent calls a child and the child comes to the parent in love, then that act has meaning. If the parent has a robot that he has programmed to come on command, then the act has no meaning other than that it shows the ability to successfully program. Since God is all powerful, I don’t that that from a technical standpoint that would be very significant to him. What God wants is relationship. What relationship requires is free will. It is churches and individual Christians who are chastised for taking up the law because doing that is essentially a denial of Christ’s saving grace. It’s not about the gentiles. Galatians 5 Freedom in Christ 1It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. 2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. Circumcision is a common metaphor for living by the Law, as I’m sure you know. Note that his was written to the churches in Galatia. This was written to Christians and about Christians , not gentiles. This is a very important point. Christians who are hung up on legalism are not living Godly lives. These people are in fact “alienated from Christ,” and have “fallen away from grace”. These are very strong words. This is as strong a warning as I can possible imagine. (And yet many people who call themselves “fundamentalists” seem to have no idea what the fundamentals of the Bible really are! But the Bible does testify to this happen as well, in Paul’s time as well as ours). This may even be true, but in response to legalistic nitpicking in general I’ll quote the last line of the last passage again, just because I like it sooo much. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
Exactly. It requires free will, something that can not be violated. If we're predestined to either be a part of the elect or not, why even bother living if there is no decision to be made? Free will and agency go together like peaches and cream, Simon and Garfunkle, Shaq and Kobe (scratch that last one).
I'm not arguing that everyone that was going to believe in Christ believed in Christ before the creation of the world. A person who doesn't exist can't believe in Christ. I'm arguing that, before the creation of the world, God determined that certain people would believe in Christ.
Mrs. JV: I see I’ve kind of hashed up your meaning in my response. I responded as if you had said gentile non-believers which is what many churches try to do these days, but that isn’t what you said so my appologies.
So when would these other people have become predestined then? Or did they? This is what isn’t clear to me.
We know now from the Bible that specific people that have been saved, but that doesn't change the logic of your position. According to your position, it was possible that everyone could have rejected Christ.
I think I see what the problem is. You are differentiating between predestining and believing. In this theory when do people come to believe? They must come to believe before they are born, at the moment of conception I guess, because in a world with free will there stands the chance that they could be killed or die before they believed, in which case they wouldn’t be predestined. But what of the people who clearly come to believe as adults, like Paul? The elect can’t have free will then (or they would need to be unable to kill themselves, even accidentally) and they must also be protected from others’ free will. This starts to become incredibly convoluted with all these conditions, don’t you think? And, if individuals couldn’t be predestined before the creation of the world and yet passages like the one in Ephesians 1 say “He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world …” does this not further show that what was predetermined was the Body of Christ and not individual Christians? Except for the Romans passage IIRC this is the way all other passages that refer to predestination read to me. The master plan is predetermined but God grants free will to individuals to decide whether they will accept him and be part of that plan. Let me suggest to you that this form of predestination isn’t true, that it’s the creation of man, not God. That makes a lot more sense in every way you look at it. If you get into the New Testament I think you will find these answers to this question for yourself. And here’s a challenging passage for both sides on this issue. From 1 Timothy 4: 9This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance 10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe. Saviour of all men? What is being said here? I don’t have an opinion because I haven’t had a close look at the context, but I thought I’d post it to show that the Bible’s meaning isn’t always completely obvious. It needs to be understood in its greater context. You need to read the Bible and check verses against other parts of the Bible. And don’t rely on traditions or blindly take the advice of “experts.” Read if for yourself. The Bible is written to be interpreted by the reader, by the believer. Don’t be afraid of it. What you learn with be empowering and invigorating. As the passage said, it’s all about love.
How do you interpret 2 Corinthians 4:4? "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Corinthians 4:4). "For God, who said, 'Let light shine out of darkness,' made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ" (2 Corinthians 4:6). Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot see the light of the gospel, and they cannot please God. "The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God" (Romans 8:6-8). "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient" (Ephesians 2:1-2). Christians were formerly dead in their trangressions. People who are dead in their transgressions can't raise themselves to life. Only God can raise them to life. A physically dead person cannot raise himself/herself to life. Neither can a spiritually dead person raise himself/herself to spiritual life. Jesus gets all the credit for raising Lazarus from the dead. Lazarus did not have the option not to be raised from the dead. Jesus raised Lazarus from physical death without consulting him. Christians did not have the option not to be raised from spiritual death. God raised us to life without consulting us. God deserves all the credit. God opened our hearts to respond to the gospel of God's grace. Before we were Christians, we were controlled by the sinful nature. We were hostile to God. It was impossible for us to submit to God's law. It was impossible for us to please God. We were dead in our trangressions. How could such people believe in Christ? People who are hostile to God, unable to please God, and dead in their transgressions cannot believe in Christ. "But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in trangressions—it is by grace you have been saved" (Ephesians 2:4-5). "One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message" (Acts 16:14). "It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy" (Romans 9:16). "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are saved by God's grace alone through faith alone. Our Lord Jesus Christ is "the author and perfecter of our faith" (Hebrews 12:2). Soli Deo Gloria. ""Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding." —Ephesians 1:3-7
Grizzled and basso, at least, have appealed to free will as a basis for rejecting predestination. I don't know if the two are actually mutually exclusive. But, assuming they are, what's the Biblical underpinnings to the belief that there is such a thing as free will?
Kate: You are not hearing what I’ve said and you’re just repeating passages we’ve already addressed. No one is saying that Christians earn their way to heaven. It’s grace, not works. There is no credit to be taken, and there is no boasting about being "chosen" or "elect" either. Again I’ll ask you, if someone offers you an extremely valuable gift and you accept, can you take credit for having obtained the gift? Of course not! And yet you made the choice to accept. You could have refused, but in either case the gift is not earned in any way. It’s the same with entering into a relationship with God. It is far far more than you could ever earn, and yet it’s offered and you have the choice to accept it. It’s not about taking credit. It’s about submission (with full humility), acknowledgment, acceptance. There is nothing to take credit for because you have earned nothing. On what we know about God before justification, I have already quoted Romans 1 but I'll do it one more time: 18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. So can we agree that this is true? Call we agree that all know this much about God? (Note that the reference to "excuse" is yet another clear indication of choice as well.) It’s true that you can’t really understand the gospel or God’s purpose for us before becoming a Christian. Indeed most of what’s written seems quite convincingly silly. It’s meaning only start to become clear once you understand the Spiritual dimension of our existence. Before then you don’t (and more specifically I didn’t) have “ears to hear or eyes to see.” BUT, none of this addresses the need to accept God’s offer. All know God’s “eternal power and divine nature” and all are called (see below). Acceptance is a fundamental. If you don’t accept the gift, in complete humility and submission and gratitude, you don’t get the gift. This is the lived experience of me and others I’ve heard testify, as well as the word of the Bible. This is what it’s all about. This is essentially the choice God gives us. If you don’t know that you have indeed fully submitted to God and are instead relying on some abstract notion that you are one of the “elect” and therefore don’t need to submit to him then you are in big, big trouble. That is a dangerous, dangerous concept. It is bad fruit that only separates people from the pursuit of God and the love of God. *Here are some passages I found on another web site on the call to all. I haven’t gone through them all so I put them forward for scrutiny and not as quotes that I have thoroughly checked. - "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3:16) My note: It says “whoever.” It does not say “the elect” or even the more ambiguous “those.” The word whoever implies choice and it implies that it is not foreknown who will believe. - "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." (John 12:32) - For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. (Romans 6:10) - For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. (1 Corinthians 15:22) - For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, that they who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. (2 Corinthians 5:15) - For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. (1 Timothy 4:10) My note: This is certainly a challenging passage for all of us. - For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (Titus 2:11) - For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins, and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. (Hebrews 7:26-27) - But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. (Hebrews 9:11-12) - By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (Hebrews 10:10) - The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9) My note: This is what he wishes, but he gives us the choice, I submit. Certainly such a wish and such patience are incompatible with the notion that God predetermined that they wouldn’t come. He’s wishing for something he knows isn’t going to happen? This clearly shows the internal inconsistency. - For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; (1 Peter 3:18)
I don’t recall basso posting in this thread, but the Reform view of predestination in not in line with the teachings of any main line Christian church, protestant or Catholic. It’s not in line with any non-main line church I’ve ever heard of either. It is an extremely conservative position that I would expect could only really exist in a few pockets in the American south. It’s certainly fringe stuff, but that doesn’t make it wrong. What makes it wrong is that it doesn’t stand up to the teaching of the Bible. It seems to be based solely on the word of “experts” instead of the Bible, and that is always a HUGE red flag. That is exactly why the meaning of the Bible was intended to be interpreted by the individuals who read it, not dictated by “experts.” The latter situation has been the source of all kinds of abuse over the years, and today. The basis for free will is essentially the whole of the Bible. There wouldn’t be any point to it if there was not free will. The “chosen people” wouldn’t have fallen away if there wasn’t free will. Salvation wouldn’t have been offered to gentiles, “to those who believe” (not to those who are “elect” (not to be confused with the “chosen people”)) if there wasn’t free will. This is a macro level perspective and we’ve addressed a number of the passages on a micro level in this thread. Many things are open to interpretation in the Bible to the point where there can be understandable differences of opinion. On this issue I have only seen one passage, the one in Romans 8, that even suggests the Reform view of predestination.
