I recently saw a Dateline piece (I was bored and needed a laugh) about a Utah man (I think his name was John or Tom Green) who had been charged for polygamy. Anyway, he is a devout Mormon and, upon doing research to attain a higher standing within the church, decided that he should honor the old ways and have multiple wives to better express his religious beliefs. He currently (or when it took place) had 5 wives and had produced around 20 or so children. Anyway, apparently, Dateline did a show about him 2 or 3 years ago, he had been making a few local TV rounds. After talking to him, the talked to police and politicians about why they hadn't gone after him. They said they had bigger worries and it wasn't provable, etc. Anyway, Dateline aired it and made the state look silly (by not prosecuting) and sure enough, the guy gets charged soon after. This was a follow up show that I saw, which saw him convicted. During the trial, he was not allowed to mention his religious beliefs because they were deemed not relevant. He is now awaiting sentencing. There was more to the story, but this is these bare essentials. I have a few problems: 1. If there is true religious freedom in this country, why must he be prosecuted (true, the Mormon church has outlawed this and excommunicated the guy, but it was founded on such ideals. If I understand correctly, from what I have read, it was basically outlawed not for religious reasons but so that Utah could become a state)? It may be illegal in some contexts, but peyote and mar1juana are legal for some religious practices, what is the differenc? 2. Why is it Dateline's job to force Utah's hand? they did a fine job of presenting him objectively, too. One point he was asked if the wives were just about more sex. Yeah, great work... 3. How can you stand trial for a religious practice if you cannot mention said religous practice? 4. The court (and Dateline) made a big deal about him going on public assistance for a while (which apparently was due to a death or something). Now that he will be going to jail, are his 5 wives and many children -- who relied on him as their only source of income -- better off? 5. What is so bad about polygamy, anyway? Considering religious symbolism, and removing oneself from social "taboo" is there any merit to its outlaw? Any other opinions? ------------------ Squatting on old bones and excrement and rusty iron, in a white blaze of heat, a panorama of naked idiots stretches to the horizon. Complete silence-their speech centers are destroyed-except for the crackle of sparks and the popping of singed flesh as they apply electrodes up and down the spine. White smoke of burning flesh hangs in the motionless air. A group of children have tied an idiot to a post with barbed wire and built a fire between his legs and stand watching with bestial curiosity as the flames lick his thighs. His flesh jerks in the fire with insect agony.
It was Tom Green, and yes Salt Lake City was founded upon those ideals. However, I still find it ridiculous that he felt compelled to uphold the practices of the pioneers of his faith. Aren't there doctrines of other religions that aren't accepted as morally right nowadays but were in the past? ------------------
I think it should be within his religious rights to have multiple wives, or at least 'partners'/'dependents'. He should not be prosecuted for it anymore than homosexual men should be prosecuted for having sex (which they shouldn't). ------------------ DREAMer's Rocket Page
"Bigamy is having one wife to many. Monogamy is the same." At any rate, Dateline doesn't see its job as making things better. If that were their tack, they'd approach their newsgathering in a completely different way. They see their job as putting together a "sexy" story in order to get ratings. If their efforts happen to accidentally make things better somewhere, then that's a bonus. I'm not sure why we should make special exceptions on religious grounds for acts that even the religion itself outlaws. On top of that, as we've seen over and over again, there are limits to freedom. I don't personally care that this guy married several women. He did do this fully knowing that it was against the law AND frowned on by the church itself. These other cases that allow certain things to be legal for religious purposes when illegal otherwise became that way either because the legislature or Congress passed a law exempting certain things, or more commonly, the Supreme Court interpreted the Constitution as allowing those exceptions. Perhaps if this fellow fights his case all the way to the Supreme Court, he can win (I wouldn't bet on it, though). It really shouldn't be up to local prosecutors to interpret the Constitution and decide what is or isn't legal based on religious grounds. ------------------
I have no problem with someone having multiple wives, of course I'd never do it though. ------------------ Ceo of the Walt Williams and Lisa Malosky fan club. My Mockumentary atheistalliance.org
Of course we all think that polygamy is wack... but, IMO, it shouldn't be illegal. For what reason does the government even think that it should restrict what goes on in consensual relationships? Outlawing polygamy is as bad, IMO, as outlawing same sex marriage. It's noone's ****ing business. There are situations in which the government has to step in, in situations in which children aren't going to school, or if molestation occurs, but it seems that many of the bad things that go on in polygamous relationships are more of a sign of the isolated, unaccepted lifestyle. BTW mrpaige, though mainstream mormonism doesn't advocate polygamy, the Reformed LDS church does. A major portion of their doctrine is actually 'calling out' the LDS church for abandoning many of their traditional practices just to gain statehood. Anyway, I would have to assume that Tom(?) Green(e) was actually in the RLDS church, not the LDS church.
I did not know that. We didn't get a lot of information about Mormons when I was growing up in Amarillo, other than the occassional note that all the non-Baptists were going to Hell. The people in my church growing up considered the LDS Church a cult. (I don't think of it that way, though). ------------------
Well, the whole polygamy thing is a little creepy, in a Branch-Davidian cult sorta way... but I agree that outlawing it is silly. Who is being harmed? On the other hand, what was this Tom Green guy thinking? It sounds like Utah is pretty lax about prosecuting polygamy - he shouldn't have called their bluff and embarrassed them into enforcing the law. And anyway, wasn't Drew Barrymore good enough for him? ------------------ I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip that I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis.
mrpaige, I hear a lot of 'cult' talk as well... but I think that just has a lot to do w/ the fact that the church is so young. Many of us think that Reverend Moon is a weirdo as well,,, perhaps in a few decades his church will be well on its way. BTW, if you want to learn more about the rlds church, you can visit their site: http://www.rlds.org I had never heard of the rlds church before moving to Utah. My first experience occurred while I was working for Salt Lake City, in GIS. I was walking to the plotter (big arse printer) when I noticed an engineer handing a map to some citizen. They were getting a bit loud and the citizen made some random comment about the RLDS church and walked out. When I asked the engineer (Mike?) what the RLDS church was he said something along the lines of "just a bunch of people that are going to hell". A few seconds later he turned to me and said "hey wait, you're not mormon are you?"... and we shared a laugh. I later found out that Mike(?) had used the phrase "going to hell" pretty loosely, considering the LDS notion of the afterlife, but that's an altogether different topic. BTW, check out the site, there's a bunch of good info detailing the origin of the RLDS church and essentially 'descent' issues that arose based on the sex of the 'heirs'. If I recall correctly (I'm too tired from hiking all day to look at it myself ), everything was going fine until Smith or whomever only had daughters. Essentially, the RLDS church was fine w/ his daughters taking over the helm and the core LDS church was not (I'm sure slcrocket or Clutch can correct all of my mistakes, but I'm tooo slleeeepy to worry about research).................
BTW, mrpaige, I did go ahead and read a bit of their site... apparently I was totally wrong about the daughter mumbo jumbo. nighty night.
Of course, polygamy is always going to seem weird to a guy like me because I have had a hard enough time convincing one woman to marry me, forget about trying to find multiple women to marry me. ------------------
For anyone interested ------------------ Jazzkiller [This message has been edited by slcrocket (edited June 24, 2001).]
Uh, sorry, but I don't see anything good or acceptable in this at all. I mean, some of his wives had mother/daughter or sister connections, for crying out loud. I saw that Dateline story, and had heard about it before then. It just pushes all the wrong moral buttons for me. Rok ------------------ Proud Member of whatever Clutch City club is currently the most popular and/or controversial.
I'm not exactly "pro-polygamy", I'm just pro-rights. I saw it too. There was one mother-daughter combo, but he did not marry the daughter until after the mother had left him (they didn't explain that very much). I kinda got the feeling that Green's wives seemed a little brainwashed, but doesn't that go on to some extent in all religions? So, who are you? I'm sure there's plenty of things you do that "push all the wrong moral buttons" of the Green family. You know what's funny, is it's not illegal for him to have 5 to 10 live in girlfriends, and to have kids with them. It's also not illegal for him to marry one, then divorce her, but maintain a livein relationship, then marry another, and continue to do that. How's that for morals? The only thing that is "illegal" about the whole thing is having more than one wife. What kind of twisted moral logic is that? This is the same argument I'd give for legalizing drugs and prostitution. No one is being harmed and they are willing participants, so mind your own business. Also, I've never used an illegal drug in my life, nor have I used a prostitute. Those things are not within my moral framework, but that doesn't mean they can't be for someone else. ------------------ DREAMer's Rocket Page
1. You have Freedom of Religion BUT NOT FREEDOM OF PRACTICE This stops the Sacrifices etc. [thinks deemed unchristian] from being legal [also those cases where the parents refuse to take a child to the doctor and the state comes in and forces it, etc] 2. Poligamy laws even same sex marriage laws have little to do with religion [that is just the smoke screen to distract you] but to do with the controling of resources . . in this case those benefits of marriage. Folx don't want them going out to any and everyone. Esp those that don't beleive as they do [ok so religion may have a little to do with it] The Gov. Wants to TAX gays as single folx [MO MONEY MO MONEY MO MONEY] If 2 people get a nice tax break . . .imagin 6? imagine the allowances etc. Lastly . . if i had 5 wives I would not be the only one working. Rocket River ------------------
Except that two people don't always get a nice tax break. If both members of the couple work and make similar incomes, they would usually pay more in taxes as a couple than as singles (or at least they have over the past many years. Congress has been trying to address this "marriage penalty" recently). ------------------
Achebe - You misunderstand me. I am actually a practicing and fully-believing Mormon. (as are a few others on this board I know that probably won't tell you they are) Maybe I was wrong to lump Tom Green into the category of people who still try to practice polygamy today for sex or just to have another wife or whatever, but I maintain that most people who do are just using the onetime practice of the LDS church as a justification for their own agendas. And as far as those who are doing it to try to be "more Mormon," well, no disrespect, but they're just flat out wrong. By definition, doing something that explicitly contradicts the current teachings of the church and the word coming down from church leaders if anything makes you "less Mormon," or in this case "no longer Mormon," as Mr. Green was likely ex-communicated. (I say likely because ex-communication is a personal matter, and the church does not disclose the names of those who have been a part of disciplinary matters... However, it is well known that polygamy is grounds for automatic ex-communication) To really appreciate that, you really need to understand that members of Mormon church (which is really the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, for those of you who are wondering why Achebe keeps using the term LDS) really and honestly believe that the prophet of the church is a literal prophet to the world, much like Moses and Abraham and those sort from the Bible. So for us, if Wilford Woodruff, the prophet who was told that polygamy was no longer needed, so don't worry about it, says so, then we accept it. And the fact remains that guys like Tom Green do not represent the views, actions, or beliefs of the Mormon church. In our belief system, the guy is in big trouble. Whether or not Utah enforces it's laws or not is it's own business... It has nothing to do with the Church... I guess my main reason for posting (I usually avoid posting in this forum altogether because it can get downright hostile at times) was to help clarify the church's actions and stances and history with polygamy. There is considerable misconception, misinterpretation, and even deliberate outright fallacy regarding the Mormon church out there, and I figured that perhaps I could shed some positive light on the subject here because I consider us to be for the most part all friends in this setting... ------------------ "There are three kinds of lies: Lies, Damned Lies, and STATISTICS..." - Mark Twain -
Darkhorse, you really ought to post more often. While I pretty much already knew everything you had to say, you said it much more clearly than I would have. ------------------ Jazzkiller
Damn, DREAMer. I couldn't have said that better myself. Bravo! ------------------ Things do not change; we change. - Henry David Thoreau
