I should note that I didn't explain myself well. When the draft ended, in 1973, I was 4. My mom wouldn't let me go to war as a toddler. However, if she would have, I would have gladly toddled off to Vietnam like a good little soldier baby.
Again, nothing to do with the subject at hand. When you can't make a valid point, it's easier to say stupid crap in an attempt to confuse people.
<center> Dear God, hope you got the letter, and... I pray you can make it better down here. I don't mean a big reduction in the price of beer but all the people that you made in your image, see them starving on their feet 'cause they don't get enough to eat from God, I can't believe in you Dear God, sorry to disturb you, but... I feel that I should be heard loud and clear. We all need a big reduction in amount of tears and all the people that you made in your image, see them fighting in the street 'cause they can't make opinions meet about God, I can't believe in you Did you make disease, and the diamond blue? Did you make mankind after we made you? And the devil too... Dear God, don't know if you noticed, but... your name is on a lot of quotes in this book, and us crazy humans wrote it, you should take a look, and all the people that you made in your image still believing that junk is true. Well I know it ain't, and so do you, dear God, I can't believe in I don't believe in I won't believe in heaven and hell. No saints, no sinners, no devil as well. No pearly gates, no thorny crown. You're always letting us humans down. The wars you bring, the babes you drown. Those lost at sea and never found, and it's the same the whole world 'round. The hurt I see helps to compound that Father, Son and Holy Ghost is just somebody's unholy hoax, and if you're up there you'd perceive that my heart's here upon my sleeve. If there's one thing I don't believe in it's you... Dear God. Song: Dear God | Artist: XTC</center>
giddyup: You have sense. I could never mistake our discussions for this one. You have the intellegence to actually stay on topic.
So your attacking me now. Nice one Mr. Civility. Why don't you practice what you preach. Or maybe ill just shoot you back a "yo mamma." : )
I will listen to this guy's opinion on what words can and can't be contained in the pledge of allegience when he stops giving and receiving flyers and tokens that prominantly display the words IN GOD WE TRUST. Oh and Jeff, whey don't you just shut the hell up you baby-eating, America-hating, hippie DRAFT DODGER.
This has to be one of the most ignorant comments I have ever seen here. Nobody is going into churches and removing the cross or getting rid of bibles. The word God or Jesus is fine with me, I believe in both. But the issue at hand here is respecting OTHERS' beliefs. Not everyone believes in God and Jesus and though you may not agree with them, you have no RIGHT to force your belief on that person.
I tried telling my mom that, but she's dumb and wouldn't believe me. But it was just a protecton thing from Communism!
I tried telling my mom that, but she's dumb and wouldn't believe me. But it was just a protecton thing from Communism! UNCONSTITUTIONAL! ps-I don't mind under god, but the first amendment doesn't.
what on earth happened to the topic on hand? boy did this thread go awry... by the way, for (s)he who posted that you do in fact have the right to recite (or not) the P.o.A.... that wasn't the case when i was in grade school in the 80s... i know some people that were sent to the office and then home for not standing up and reciting... i don't know if a ruling has been made in the past 15+ years to change that, but that was the case then...
this is a joke, right? so just sitting back and praying will stop idiots around the world from taking extremist stands against their opposition? maybe i'm being blunt, but that's what i extracted from this statement.
When I first read this ruling it made me very mad. It is a slap in the face to my patriotic side, I am sure this is the same thing that most Americans feel at first. But as I thought about it more I realized that this was more about freedom of speech. Like MadMax said the 9th court is a joke and this will be appealed to the full 9th circuit or the supreme court. The decision has actually been put on hold and the justice dept is requesting a hearing by an 11 judge panel composed of 9th circuit judges. I don't think that the 1st amendment is being infringed upon as long as children are not being forced to say it (anymore). I was never forced to say it, but I always said it so I don't know what would have happened. I remember a couple of kids in my high school (93-97) not saying it because they were Jehova's witnesses. That is ok with me. I think that the Pledge of Allegiance is just that, a pledge to your country. "Under God" was added in 1954 after a campaign by the knights of columbus. This happened under the Red Scare, maybe it was a mistake, at this present time it is going to be almost impossible to modify something this patriotic. "God" is embedded in this country and it's history. If you change this then you should change everything with "God" in it and rewrite the foundation of the United States. My perspective is that I don't go to church, but I do belive in God. While the presence of "God" doesn't bother me in our nation's documents and the Pledge of Allegiance, I can see how it does bother some. That is the beauty of America though, you don't have to belive in God or anything you don't want to. A document that acknowledges the presence of "God" also protects the rights of everyone to denounce "God". If you don't want to say "God" then leave it out of your pledge. One Nation....Indivisble with Liberty and Justice for all. I respect the rights of the minority but I don't think that they should be able to change the Pledge of Allegiance, it is voluntary and does not infringe upon any rights. Sure some may not like to hear "God", but it is my right and my child's right to say it. I think it is unconstitutional for a panel of judge's to tell me what I can NOT say, that infringes upon the 1st amendment more than having "God" in a song. History of the Pledge Some of the post in this topic where pretty crappy....
anyone catch "On the Record" with Greta Van Susteren tonight? they discussed this topic with the guy that is suing the school board in California and the superintendent of the district... the guy says he's been getting death threats at home and wants the right for his daughter, who i guess is an atheist like he is, to not be REQUIRED to say the words "under God" in the pledge... he compared it by saying: what if we changed the word God to Allah? he said it wouldn't mean a difference to him b/c he is an atheist, but he knows there would be a public outcry! the guy made some good points, and i totally understand his side. i don't think the pledge should be required, but it should still be stated for those that want to say it. in reality, i don't think most kids care about the matter at all, its their parents that are getting all crazy about it...
Perhaps you should write a letter to the vast majority of politicians out there who dodged the draft one way or another at some point - President and Vice President included, of course. Ultimately Max is correct - this means nothing. Just a zany little district trying to do something upon which no support can be garnered. Anyone catch Bush's response? Something along the lines of, "That is why I think we need more common sense judges who understand that the law come directly from God...and those are the types of judges I plan to put on the bench." Again, how could anyone even pretend that the initial decision means anything. step one step two step three platform...... Unfortunately, this thread is a prime exampe of our distaste and contempt for one another. We move along in our lives as if we are nothing more than balls on a pool table - sometimes crashing into one another, guided by a cold hardness. Never truly interacting, only inconveniencing. It is far easier to bathe each other in the negativity of our own insecurities. I pledge allegiance to the value of words, to the nation of language. I am against the destruction of our life through empty structures - visual or spoken. I have visions of a time when words will be cherished such that they will not be used lightly, shallowly, and evily. Why? I am a cancer that spawned from my own mind - nourishing and feeding, yet eating away at my very being. I await.
They should have sued. Here is a link to the relevant SCOTUS decision from 1943: WEST VIRGINIA STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION v. BARNETTE
thanks for the link! what caught my eye was the description to the link from another page I found... it said "Flag salute too much like Hitler." talk about going too far!
Wink3Cat5: Really good post. I'm actually in agreement. The "God" part doesn't bother me at all as long as no one is forced to say it. I think what is most important is that we all learn that one view of God or even one word cannot adequately compensate for many wide varieties of religion to be found in America. The numbers of people who follow the practices of non-Christian religion in America are growing as the country becomes more and more diverse and we have to recognize that and learn to appreciate those differences. I think the ruling was reactionary, but if it gets people talking about our differences, I'm all for it.
Major-- You don't know the first thing about me. Please do not try to assess my intelligence. No need to get that personal. Jeff-- You call me out for failing the civility litmus test, and when Major throws around direct insults there isn't a word from you. I must respectfully ask that you call it even on both sides of the ball.
