1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Plame Update

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by basso, Mar 25, 2005.

  1. basso

    basso Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    33,474
    Likes Received:
    9,348
    google's your friend. i don't know if this is the only relevant statute, but it's the one most often cited.
     
  2. basso

    basso Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    33,474
    Likes Received:
    9,348
    Whoever, as a result of having authorized access to classified
    information, learns the identify of a covert agent and intentionally
    discloses
    any information identifying such covert agent to any
    individual not authorized to receive classified information, knowing
    that the information disclosed so identifies such covert agent and that
    the United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such covert
    agent's intelligence relationship to the United States, shall be fined
    not more than $25,000 or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
     
  3. gifford1967

    gifford1967 Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2003
    Messages:
    8,310
    Likes Received:
    4,659


    Ummmm- where's the part about "with the intent of damaging U.S. national security."?
     
  4. basso

    basso Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    33,474
    Likes Received:
    9,348
    i shouldn't have to post the entire statute, i'm sure you can read through it yourself and reach your own conclusions.
     
  5. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2002
    Messages:
    16,596
    Likes Received:
    496


    People in the WH had such access and intentionally disclosed information that identified Plame to Novak, who I seriously doubt has top-secret clearance.

    Anyone who had access to her identity would also have been aware of her covert status, given that it was the CIA (in the person of Tenet) who reported the violation to the Justice Department for investigation.

    Thank you for helping to prove what we have been saying all along.
     
  6. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2002
    Messages:
    16,596
    Likes Received:
    496
    That sure seems to be what you did. Unfortunately, it appears that your conclusions include stuff that you just made up.
     
  7. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2002
    Messages:
    16,596
    Likes Received:
    496
    Just so we can be clear, here is the only place where it talks about intent to injure the US...

    Sec. 8312. Conviction of certain offenses

    (a) An individual, or his survivor or beneficiary, may not be paid
    annuity or retired pay on the basis of the service of the individual
    which is creditable toward the annuity or retired pay, subject to the
    exceptions in section 8311(2) and (3) of this title, if the individual--
    (1) was convicted, before, on, or after September 1, 1954, of an
    offense named by subsection (b) of this section, to the extent
    provided by that subsection; or
    (2) was convicted, before, on, or after September 26, 1961, of
    an offense named by subsection (c) of this section, to the extent
    provided by that subsection.

    The prohibition on payment of annuity or retired pay applies--
    (A) with respect to the offenses named by subsection (b) of this
    section, to the period after the date of the conviction or after
    September 1, 1954, whichever is later; and
    (B) with respect to the offenses named by subsection (c) of this
    section, to the period after the date of conviction or after
    September 26, 1961, whichever is later.

    (b) The following are the offenses to which subsection (a) of this
    section applies if the individual was convicted before, on, or after
    September 1, 1954:
    (1) An offense within the purview of--
    (A) section 792 (harboring or concealing persons), 793
    (gathering, transmitting, or losing defense information), 794
    (gathering or delivering defense information to aid foreign
    government), or 798 (disclosure of classified information), of
    chapter 37 (relating to espionage and censorship) of title 18;
    (B) chapter 105 (relating to sabotage) of title 18;
    (C) section 2381 (treason), 2382 (misprision of treason),
    2383 (rebellion or insurrection), 2384 (seditious conspiracy),
    2385 (advocating overthrow of government), 2387 (activities
    affecting armed forces generally), 2388 (activities affecting
    armed forces during war), 2389 (recruiting for service against
    United States), or 2390 (enlistment to serve against United
    States), of chapter 115 (relating to treason, sedition, and
    subversive activities) of title 18;
    (D) section 10(b)(2), (3), or (4) of the Atomic Energy Act
    of 1946 (60 Stat. 766, 767), as in effect August 30, 1954;
    (E) section 16(a) or (b) of the Atomic Energy Act of 1946
    (60 Stat. 773), as in effect before August 30, 1954, insofar as
    the offense is committed with intent to injure the United States
    or with intent to secure an advantage to a foreign nation; or


    That section is saying that if a person has intent to injure the US that they will not be eligible to receive pensions from the government after such offense. It says nothing about that being required to secure a conviction under the statute.

    A swing and a miss!
     
  8. basso

    basso Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    33,474
    Likes Received:
    9,348
    the statute is pages long- i posted one relevant part. nitpick all you want- the proof is in the (lack) of the pudding.
     
  9. basso

    basso Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    33,474
    Likes Received:
    9,348
    i'm delighted to discover such an expert on the intelligence identities protection act on a basketball bbs. if mr. fitzgerald returns an indictment against someone in the white house, i will happily eat my words. if he doesn't, will you? of course, for you it's relatively low risk, since it's much harder to prove a dispositive, ie, the absence of an indictment. however, if you'll go back and read the opening article, you'll note that some other folks on your side of the ideological divide are beginning to have their doubts about the case, and i suspect they've got people on retainer who are better versed in case law than even you.
     
  10. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2002
    Messages:
    16,596
    Likes Received:
    496
    Pudding ingredients...

    Someone leaked Plame's name to Novak, an action which is a felony.

    Most of the people with access to that information and motive to leak work in the WH.

    The offense was so egregious that the CIA director brought the case to the Justice Department for investigation.

    The Justice Department referred the case to a special prosecutor.

    A grand jury has been convened in the case.

    _________________________________________

    For something with such a "lack" of substance, a great many actions have taken place that would indicate that a crime has been committed at a pretty high level.

    Stick your head back in the sand, stop embarrassing yourself.
     
  11. gifford1967

    gifford1967 Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2003
    Messages:
    8,310
    Likes Received:
    4,659

    In other words you just pulled that out your butt.
     
  12. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2002
    Messages:
    16,596
    Likes Received:
    496
    You need to brush up on your reading comprehension. As was stated in the article and rehashed time after time by FB among others, the "doubts about the case" are the result of media organization's lawyers trying to keep their sources anonymous, not because anyone in those organizations doubts the veracity of the accusations.
     
  13. basso

    basso Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    33,474
    Likes Received:
    9,348
    except, it's not.
     
  14. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2002
    Messages:
    16,596
    Likes Received:
    496
    What are you smoking???

    Leaking an undercover intelligence officer's name is a felony.
     
  15. basso

    basso Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    33,474
    Likes Received:
    9,348
    no, it's not always. read the statute.
     
  16. No Worries

    No Worries Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 1999
    Messages:
    32,982
    Likes Received:
    20,802
    no, it's not always. read the statute.

    yeah, the fine print says it is OK as long as you are doing it as part of a political vendetta.
     
  17. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2002
    Messages:
    16,596
    Likes Received:
    496
    I did and under the circumstances we are discussing, a felony has been committed.
     
  18. basso

    basso Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    33,474
    Likes Received:
    9,348
    thank you, patrick fitzgerald. so where's the indictment?
     
  19. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2002
    Messages:
    16,596
    Likes Received:
    496
    An indictment may never come due to stonewalling, but that does not change the fact that a felony was committed.

    As was mentioned earlier in this thread, if you find a dead body with a knife it the back, a felony has been committed even if nobody is ever indicted. This is the same type of situation. We know that someone leaked the name of an undercover operative that the CIA was actively keeping undercover (thus Tenet referring the case to the Justice Department). That is a felony.
     
  20. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 1999
    Messages:
    36,288
    Likes Received:
    26,645
    A felony has been committed even if the dead body was someone that was trying to kill you or your family? Not commenting on Plame, but, in general, just because it looks like a felony has been committed doesn't mean a felony has been committed.
     

Share This Page