Palestinian State

Arafat is scared s*itless right now, so he may very well accept it.

But will the Palestinian people accept it? That is the $64 question...

 

nevermind

 

How the hell can you not have sympathy for them? They're being repressed more than the blacks were before the Civil Rights movement. They were being repressed before anybody engaged in terrorist activities. Israel has treated them like animals.

Basic human liberties? Nope. Right to vote? Nope. Equal water? Nope. Equal Education? Nope. Equal workplace rights? Nope.

Gee, Max. Show that Christian spirit!

 

Its time to put this Muslim vs Jews crap to rest. I am a Muslim and I am tired of this ****. Yeah Israel took Muslim land. Israel is no saint. I will also admit that those dumb **** idiots who call themselves Muslims committing those suicide bomb attacks are not going to heaven either. If the Muslims had adopted the teachings of Gandhi the whole world would have been with them.

So its time to forget the finger pointing and accept a peaceful soution. Of course its much easier to say this with me living in America. I am not there and I do not fully comprehend the situation. However I do know that the leaders over there need to committ to a peace if they ever want a better life for themselves and especially for the innocent kids.

 

No one here has ever denied that they are being persecuted, haven. No one here has ever said that Israel is blameless in this. They DO treat the Palestinians like animals, and such treatment must stop. But until everyone is willing to admit that the Palestinians are as much (if not more) to blame for the situation, then absolutely nothing will ever get done. This whole effort to make the Palestinians look totally innocent sickens me, because it is counter to any productive process that has any chance in hell of working. A solution based on lies will fail.

And the Palestinians had better accept the next deal, because it will probably be the last offer. If they reject this one, then there may not be any more Palestinians in the future, because everyone will know that their true goal is to destroy Israel.

One thing that the Palestinians fail to understand (and appreciate) is that while we will not let them destroy Israel, we have also prevented the Israelis from destroying them thus far. If they pass on a chance at peace again, then we might just let the dogs off the leash and not particularly care who they bite.

 

prevented the israelis from destroying arabs by giving them 3 bil a year and the best weapons money could buy...damn how come it never made sense to me.

i can't remember the exact quote by ghandi on the palestine situation but it was something to the effect of 'palestine belongs to the arabs' full stop

and again the last negotiations were pure crap. research it and see how much israel really offered.

 

Someone told me recently that Israel has gone back on everything they've ever agreed upon. I'd like to see that put in context (since the person that told me this is Muslim ), but if it's true, I will become even more increasingly tired of the ME situation.

I'm torn... part of me says "have a nice day Israel", but then the other side realizes that Israel will last for a few mos. if the US really abandons them.

This is eurocentric as ****, but the alternative viewpoint is for our culture to let another genocide occur: it's time for the UN to go in and enforce happy happy joy joy. Arm the hell out of the UN, and destroy any dissension. If attrocities occur during my plan, they'll be the kind that a peaceful culture a 100 years from now thinks back upon in an academic setting.

If both of these cultures want to act like 2 year olds, treat them like 2 year olds.

 

Im so tired of hearing this crap about whos wrong in this situation.
They are BOTH wrong! The Palestinians want to destroy the Israelies for being on their holy land, and the Israelies want to destroy the Palestinians for the same reason.

If I remember my history correctly..didnt both cultures occupy the region back in Christ's time?
If I am right, then neither culture deserves the right to say the other doesn't belong there. They need to work out an equitable solution that does not involve genocide. Period!

Sure, the Israelies have done things wrong, so have the Palestinians, so have the US. (we should never have chosen sides.)

Achebe, do we really protect them THAT much? We have sold them military hardware..so? We have sold lots of countries hardware.
From what I have heard, the Israelies have a quite impressive and skilled military. Do we send our troops in to protect them? Not to my knowledge. So why are we blamed for their ability to defend themselves against those that want to wipe them out?
So much about this doesn't make sense to me, I thank all of you for your posts, this last month has been sooo educational.

 

The Jews were expelled from Jerusalem by the Romans in the 2nd century, and from a religious perspective, their claim to the land is based on a short lived kingdom that existed thousands of years ago.

The area has been predominantly Arabic/Islamic since they invaded the Canaanites at the end of the 7th century.

Hell, the Palestinian Jews didn't want a Jewish state in the area, and they settled in that area because of religious reasons, and prior to the inception of the state, all faiths that resided in the area pretty much peacefully coexisted. Of course, there was a nationalist revolt by the Arabs some time around 1936-39, but that uprising was brutally crushed by the British.

Then, in the 1880's, the first Zionists colonists boastfully claimed that they were retaking the area since it was the "right of the Jewish people". This is what basically started it; the Jews excluded Muslims and Christians from the area, and Jerusalem is the 3rd holiest site behind Mecca and Medina I believe.

It really got bad when the Zionists started boasting about their opression of the Palestinians and when they illegaly stole land from the people (see 'absentee landowners'). They gave the Palestinians a nice little "f*ck you" message telling them to get jobs in one of the surrounding countries.

Here's the Ghandi quote boy was alluding to.....

"Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French...What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct...If they [the Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs... As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them. I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regard as an unacceptable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds." Mahatma Gandhi,

 

4 billion/yr

 

Achebe & Rockets2K:

Couple points -

1) Relative to their enemies, the Israelis have a very formidable military. We have sold them much of their equipment, however they now have their own production capacity and produce their own fine weaponry. We also sell the Arabs in the area (except Syria) weaponry, and in recent years (the past 10 or so) our weapons sales to the Arabs has far surpassed that to the Israelis; they are simply incapable of producing their own, though. But the weapons are only a small part of it. The Arabs have consistently gotten their arses kicked by the Israelis because the Israelis actually train in a professional manner. We don't help them there, although every year we have a wargame in the Negev (we have never lost, BTW).

But the whole point of this is that A) we sell both sides weapons, so the Arabs can hardly honestly criticize us for supporting Israel in that way, and B) the Israelis will continue to kick the Arabs' arses if they keep attacking them. In addition, the Israelis have about 100 nukes (maybe more) and they will use them if Israel is ever about to be destroyed. They were literally minutes from using them in 1973 - the bombs were actually loaded and ready to go...

2) The UN, IMO, would have to be a part of any peaceful solution, as will a Palestinian state. The problem is that the Israelis have refused any UN peacekeepers in the past unless the US is willing to supply the troops (we are the only ones they trust), and we have up 'till now refused that request. I suspect we might rethink that refusal soon. In addition, the Palestinians won't trust any force that isn't a UN force, and they won't trust a solely American force, so other countries (preferably muslim) will have to contribute in order for them to respect it.

That's what must be done, or nothing at all will work. In my personal opinion, I think Arafat will accept the Israelis next offer, this UN operation (or one like it) will begin, and then the Palestinian populace will begin the violence again. I do not think that the majority wants to peacefully coexist with the Jews, and I think they will break any new ceasefires that are negotiated - just like they have every ceasefire in the past 8 years. Just my opinion, and I hope I'm wrong...

 

Bingo.

 

My take:

I start with Ghandi's position. It belonged to the Palestinians. The moral right to the land is almost all on their side. Israels' supporters will comlicate this with tales of land purchases and denials and coverups ad infinitum.

A two thousand year right of return claim is bull. Nice try, but no cigar.

However, let's be practical. The Israeli's have nuclear weapons. Their air force with US technology is impossibly ahead of the Palestinians or neighboring Arab states except for our vassals the Saudis who need our pilots to do much with their hardware. The Israelis after the Holocost are fanatical. They will use the bomb or weapons of mass destruction with little remorse if threatened.

Israel's right to the land is by conquest only except for the few Jews who lived there throughout the centuries.

The Palestinians and Arabs will have to live with Israel's conquest.
Just like Native Americans have to live with our conquest.

If the Israeli's have any morality (and not just misguided religiosity) they will acknowlege their right is by conquest and try to do the best for the Palestinians. Bend over backwards. None of this "Settler-Zionist" crap.

A return to the pre 1967 borders or very close to it is the way to go. Any talk about Israel being 13 miles wide without the West Bank or the Golan Heights and artillery is bull or last centuy's thinking. Israel's long term defense defense is based strictlty on the bomb, air superiority US and allied asistance and weapons of mass distruction, not old fashioned trench warfare.

Once Israel returns to pre 1967 borders or damn close to it. (This actually gives the ARabs back some conquered land and at least something to feel good about.) It is in accord with UN Resolutions, I believe.

If the Arabs and Palestinians agree to this they should collectively be given the Nobel Peace Prize and be handsomely compensated by the wealthy countries of the world, so that their living standards could advance very rapidly.

Having complied with UN Resoloutions Israel will have acquired about all the legitimacy it can have at this date as a recent conqueror. This century and the Twentieth Century don't noramlly look favorably on conqueror's claims. This and the peace that they have will be Israel's consolation for losing some additional land they had conquered and which many wanted to hang on. It will also compensate them for the trauma of evicting and arresting the fanatical religious settler types.

Once Israel goes back to pre 1967 borders. Israels' borders should be absolutely guaranteed. This should be by UN resolution preferably and backed up by formal treaty with the US. Europe and hopefully Russia and even China.

I agree with all who say it is time to force a soloution upon the parties. My present opinion is that this will mostly consist of applying coercion to the Sharon wing in Israel who still hope to retain more than the UN Resolutions call for because of their current military superiority.

After the division of the land. The internal civil right of non Jews in Israel will be an internal matter. Of course those who care about human and civil rights internationally can protest and help the process along.

 

TPL,

but how long did the Jews inhabit the region before they were expelled? Do they or do they not have a right to be there also?
and whats the diff between Zionists and Israeli Jews? Is there any fundamental reason that they can not peacefully coexist?

tree,

So would I be correct in assuming that Israel does not need our help in defending themselves? Other than the fact that they get money and buy arms from us...and thats not a valid argument imo.. as you said, we sell arms to LOTS of countries. and we also give money to lots and lots of people.

Damn, thats scary! Israel is way too hot-tempered to have nukes...
Unfortunately, Muslim fundamentalists in the ME will never allow a peace accord that allows Israel to exist as a state...how bout we merge Israel and Palestine into one country with both cultures allowed equal rule? I know, I know....pipe-dream...oh well...I guess my old preacher was right, WW3 will start in the ME...

 

Boom

 

First off, I agree with most of your post (the sky is falling!). This quote is IMHO the most important point, and I agree 100%. The Israelis might not like giving back the only land they legitemately won in wartime (the rest was given to them), but no solution will work unless the 1967 borders are restored. Of course, Barak offered to return to the 1967 borders before and the Palestinians refused the offer, and a majority of Palestinians want to return to the 1948 borders (totally unacceptable)...

But the 1967 borders are a must. I think Israel will be willing to offer it again if we press them, and I think Arafat will accept. The Jewish settlements must stop as well, that is clear. I think even Sharon (who used to run the settlement project) will even accept this if we press him. But if the Israelis are willing to withdraw their military, return to the 1967 borders, end the settlements, and allow a Palestinian state, then the Palestinians must reign in their terrorists and stop the violence. That is all that Israel asked for last time, and Arafat refused. This time Arafat will accept.

The problem is, of course, that he no longer controls the terrorists or his populace. He can stop sending out hate-filled TV and radio propaganda against the US and Israel on a 24-hour basis, and he can stop some of the terrorists, but he no longer has the trust of the populace and he has totally lost any control over Hamas that he used to have.

I think it is too late. Again, I hope I am wrong.

 

We have never defended them in any of their wars, we have just given them weapons, supplies, and money. Yes, they can easily defend themselves - in a conventional war.

 

glynch im down.

 

Rockets2K:

Just a couple bits of info - The Jews were in Palestine for well over 1000 years before the Romans dispersed them, but that is not a reasonable claim IMO, as it is still almost 2000 years old. They are, however, there now, and I fail to see how that can change in a peaceful manner (sending them elsewhere is not going to happen - Israel will continue to exist until someone destroys it).

The state of Israel was created in 1948; it was the UN General Assembly's first action ever, and probably their greatest mistake ever. It was done at British urging, as they had issued the Balfour Declaration in the '20s (which promised Israel a state) and wanted to get out of Palestine (their troops had been occupying it for years). The Zionists were/are a radical Jewish faction that believes that Israel must exist in the Holy Land (Palestine, with Jerusalem as capitol), and thewy heavily influenced the British/UN decision.

IMO no one should have listened to the Zionists in the first place. I would have put the state of Israel in West Texas, or some other place where they wouldn't immediately be surrounded by mortal enemies...