I'm not looking forward to the off season already, but some posters have brought up some very good points about playing time & what appears to be a glut of talent at the PF/SF positions (ironic isn't it?). Jeff made a comment that KT was upset about not being the starter when he was able to play again. This isn't the first time that he's pouted about this very same thing. He pouted last year for a while when Taylor was given the starters role & he'll probably pout next year when Taylor comes back. This is not a slam KT thread, but a how can we improve the team & get KT in a position to be a starter thread. I've worked up several trade scenario's for the off season involving Houston, Chicago, & New York, but I'll only list 3 of them. Houston's biggest weakness is the center position (and getting everyone healthy), no big surprise there. We're also in a position of having a glut at the PF/SF spots next year. New York has 3 PG's & wants to move one. They also have a serious need for a true center, so that they can move Camby back to the PF spot. Chicago has 4 centers in Miller/Bagaric/Curry/Chandler, unless they plan on making Chandler a PF. If not, then that leaves them with Fizer & the soon to be gone Oakley at the PF spot. They also need a younger, experienced PG to run the team. Anthony has been doing a good job, but he's a career backup PG & is 34 years old. Trade #1 Houston trades: Kelvin Cato $6,048,000 to New York Houston trades: Terence Morris $490,000 to New York Houston trades: Moochie Norris $3,600,000 to Chicago Houston trades: Kenny Thomas $946,920 to Chicago TOTAL: $11,084,920 Chicago trades: Brad Miller $4,400,000 to Houston (plus Trade Kicker $690,000) TOTAL: $4,400,000 New York trades: Othella Harrington $2,475,000 to Houston New York trades: Mark Jackson $3,860,000 to Houston TOTAL: $6,335,000 TRADE ACCEPTED #1 is the one that I like the most, however getting Jackson may be impossible. Trade #2 Houston trades: Kenny Thomas $946,920 to Chicago Houston trades: Moochie Norris $3,600,000 to Chicago Houston trades: Terence Morris $490,000 to New York Houston trades: Kelvin Cato $6,048,000 to New York TOTAL: $11,084,920 Chicago trades: Dalibor Bagaric $854,640 to Houston Chicago trades: Brad Miller $4,400,000 to Houston (plus Trade Kicker $690,000) TOTAL: $5,254,640 New York trades: Mark Jackson $3,860,000 to Houston New York trades: Othella Harrington $2,475,000 to Houston TOTAL: $6,335,000 TRADE ACCEPTED We really don't need Bagaric if Griffin grows into the center position & Collier ever stays healthy. Trade #3 Houston trades: Jason Collier $1,280,040 to New York Houston trades: Kelvin Cato $6,048,000 to New York Houston trades: Moochie Norris $3,600,000 to Chicago Houston trades: Kenny Thomas $946,920 to Chicago TOTAL: $11,874,960 Chicago trades: Brad Miller $4,400,000 to Houston (plus Trade Kicker $690,000) TOTAL: $4,400,000 New York trades: Charlie Ward $5,110,000 to Houston (plus Trade Kicker $814,500) New York trades: Othella Harrington $2,475,000 to Houston TOTAL: $7,585,000 TRADE ACCEPTED This trade is pretty interesting also. Even though Ward makes $5.1 mill this year as a backup, he's only got 2 more years on his contract, with a player option in the last year. I'd rather have Ward than Eisley (5 years left on his contract), if NY won't part with Jackson in trade #1. It's my belief that Moochie is ready to be a starting PG & would provide Chicago with what they need. KT would probably start over Fizer & would solidify their PF position. While I've been one of Cato's worst critics, I must admit that his game has shown improvement this year, even though he still couldn't catch glue if it hit him in the hands. He would still provide NY with a defensive presence that they currently don't have in the middle. Either Collier or T-Mo would offer NY some young talent with a great up side. Othella would slide into the backup up role behind Taylor next year, without pouting. Jackson or Ward would fill in very well at the backup PG spot, while Brown is being groomed to take over. Jackson would be the better one to get, because his contract has 2 years left with a team option in the second year. Miller would give us the center we need (with scoring & rebounding) to hold down the center position, until Griffin grows into it. Any one of these trades would give us a roster of: C: Miller/Griffin/Willis or Collier PF: Taylor/Othella/Willis SF: Rice/Torres/Langhi or T-Mo SG: Mobley/Torres PG: Francis/Jackson or Ward/Brown Obviously, at least 1 of these guys would have to go on the IL, depending on what we do in the draft. Any thoughts?
It would be good to have someone like Jackson to come into a game off the bench and change the tempo with his great passing abilities but I think there's more of an upside to keeping Moochie. However if we were to get Brad Miller this trade would be one worth thinking about.
I dislike all your scenarios. I do not see us getting any better with those players. I say keep the team together and let them gel. If I do any deals it would be for a dominant player. SSomeone thast would get us to the next level. None of those players would allow us to get to that level. In my opioion: KT is better than Othella. I would rather have Mooch than any of the other pg you suggested. I believe TMo will be a starter for this team. I even think Cato is coming around. Cato, Mo, and Griffin would be a very good frontline.
Hey, you're giving up on Terrence Morris way too FAST! In my opinion, he will be our future 3, and we'll look back at this post and go, "What were we smokin'?" And when we trade KT, I want it to be in a package that enables us to get a quality player, not another role player...
No one will do us any favors unless they will get something in return. I would like to have Harrington back, and would probably be willing to give up thomas and someone, because we need to get Grffin minutes,period. He should start, and play, but Thomas has played well enough to warrant his game time. If they would take thomas and collier for harrington, i would do it. The way he's playing right now, just the rebounding and blk shots is enough to say if he's starting sometime this yr, someone other than him will be on the bench.
Would NYC really be willing to trade Jackson and Harrington for Cato and Morris - I really dont watch enough of the Knicks to know how those players are currently used? I like Morris' play in the rebounding department for sure, but havent seen anythign else out of him that makes me think he can be a starter in this league - his inability to hit the open jumper is really dissapointing (it has to be mental, correct?). I prefer the true postup presence of Harrington to KT though, and Jackson would be a very serviceable backup PG to replace Moochie and provide some veteran leadership. Brad Miller puts up great numbers at times as well. I think I like all the trade scenarios proposed.
WOW! Such an insightful response. Care to elaborate? Thanks to the rest of you for your responses. The part of this trade that improves the Rockets is Miller. He's the prize in my opinion. He'd give us the consistent scoring & rebounding that Cato can't. And to top it off, Cato is averaging only .08 BPG more than Miller. I don't really want to give up KT, but based on his previous reactions to coming off the bench, it's, more likely than not, going to happen again when Taylor comes back next year. This move would not hurt us too much, because I feel that KT & Othella are very similar in what they bring to the table. Either combination of Taylor/KT(6'7") or Taylor/Othella(6'9") would give us quality depth at the PF position. As far as giving up on T-Mo too quickly, that's not the case. The trade would work just as well with Langhi, but there are 2 reasons why I included T-Mo, instead of Langhi. The first reason is that I felt NY would be more receptive to T-Mo over Langhi & the second reason is that I don't want to give up on a 6'11" SF, that hasn't had enough consistent PT yet to establish his game. I keep envisioning a Nowitski type player. However, the coaches must see something that I don't, because he's sure not getting any PT. The only reason that I included Moochie in the trades, is because I felt that Chicago wouldn't want Jackson, due to his age & neither Ward or Eisley appear to be starter material, but Ward & Jackson would make a great backup. JayZ750, I really don't think NY would give up Jackson for the package that I've put together, because he's been playing very well. However, they've got over $13.7 million tied up in their 3 PG's & might very well be willing to trade Ward ($5.1 mill) for a starting center.
Not bad, 'toddie. These trades actually approach reasonable, in my opinion, but the first Knicks trade is asking too much of NY unless they're at least as dissatisfied with Mark Jackson as we are with Cato or just really want to shake up the team. The third trade makes the most sense to me, but only when taken as a whole. New York gets the better of us there. Kenny and Moochie for Brad Miller only works for Chicago, if PF and PG are really weak spots for them, and they have a solid center who can step in for Brad. Otherwise, I feel it's a wash for them and doesn't really help them. I can deal with Charlie Ward's contract only if he can satisfactorily replace Mooch. In addition to playing as well as Mooch, he also has to fit the backup role as well. One of the main reasons we signed Mooch to that contract is because his game fit what the Rockets needed from a backup PG/third guard so well. Even if Ward is better than Mooch, you have to consider chemistry and not just talent. I don't know Ward's game, but if he's a dump-it-in PG who can't create for himself, then that hurts us. The key problem with the Chicago trades is they already have Fizer. Is KT really an improvement? Does KT really help them? Do they really need Mooch? I like the way you shift the exchange of talent for the Rockets slightly from PF to Center. I think that's the right way to go. But it seems like a lot of shuffling of players to accomplish that. Any time you mix things around, you set back chemistry again. Rudy's mentioned something along those lines, and don't forget Sam Cassell's criticism either. I could see the last trade happening maybe. When it comes down to it, though, it seems like Chicago and NY would be best served trading Jackson (or Ward, maybe) for Miller and leave us out of it.
I like all the trade proposals, but I love trade #1. Do it! Could you throw in Rice? New York won't take him, but, what about Chicago? If you can move Rice, Norris, and Cato, I'm for it.
the Heat have let it be known that Eddie Jones & Brian Grant are avialible for the right price. the Bulls are intersted in Eddie Jones. i say offer Mo Taylor & Walt Williams for Brian Grant straight up...if they want more, give'em Dan Langhi but no more...NO 1st or 2cd round picks. Cato / draft pick / Willis ---( 2004 Brad Miller will be free agent) Grant / KT / EG Griffin / Tmo / Torres Mobley / Torres Francis / Moochie / Brown now that would be a hell of a starting line up even with Cato in there......yes even Cato if he continues to play like he has lately. if we wait for Brad Miller's free agency, we could opted to draft a PF prosepect instead or trade KT & Brown for one.
how come on every trade idea on this board, it involves you guys dumping guys you would probably trade for a 2nd round pick if allowed (i.e. cato, norris, collier) and getting solid players in return? do you think other gms dont look at stats, salaries, and just overall talent? or do you think most nba gms are just rocket fans like the rest of the world?
not to bring up a cuss word, but we got Snottie Pippen for Rodney Rodgers and a second round pick...its not unconcievable
ummm.... wasn't the Pippen deal a sign and trade and Roy Rogers was just the throw in to make the deal work?
NugzFan, I have to disagree with your assessment of the players being used in this scenario. As much as I hate Cato, there is no way that I would ever settle for just a second round pick for him. His attitude has improved somewhat this year, which for Cato is a major improvement. There's never been any doubt that he has the tools to be a dominant center in the NBA. Also, please don't assume that everyone here places no value on most of our players. If you'll read the posts of most of the posters that think everyone on our roster but Francis & Griffin sucks, then you'll see how their opinions change like the wind with every win or loss. Moochie/KT could be starters on the Bulls team & significantly help their team. The Bulls could have a 10 man rotation of: C: Curry/Chandler PF: KT/Fizer SF: Artest/Mercer SG: Robinson/Hassell PG: Moochie/Anthony Given some time to develop chemistry together, that could be a very good team with quality depth at every position & just enough experienced veterans. They also have Crawford/Guyton/Bagaric/Hoiberg for added depth. That's a team of the future. As for NY, they'd get a center with an improved attitude & Collier showed signs of what he could do prior to his injury. By acquiring a starting center, they could move Camby back to the PF position, which might help to keep him from getting pounded so much. After all, he's only 6'11" 235 lbs. That's only 15 lbs. heavier than Langhi & I sure wouldn't play Langhi at the center position. Now, I'm not saying that NY couldn't get a better offer, but with this proposal, they get two 7 footers or a center & a promising SF that already shows great rebounding & defensive skills & they get to move the most expensive of their 3 PG's, that take up $13.7 million in cap space. None of these players are considered star players, but by trading them, they do fill a need area for each team, or so I think.
toddie, your trade scenarios are intresting, to say the least, but there some faults. Miller is Chicago's only true center, so far, and Jackson, with his floor leadership, might be untouchable for now. And Othella doesn't conjure any frontcourt toughness that we desperately need. I like Miami's willingness to part with their good, but very overpaid players for our decent , but somewhat overpaid players. Houston trades: Glen Rice Maurice Taylor Moochie Norris Dan Langhi Kyle Hill total: 19,365,850 Miami trades: Eddie Jones Brian Grant Eddie House Ken Johnson total: 20,555,538 trade accepted This trade, IMO, works good for both teams. Grant is similar to MoT only with better rebounding skills. Jones is a bigger Cat. Ken Johnson gives us some depth incase Eddie or Cato goes down. Eddie House has alot of potential as a backup PG. We know what they're getting, with some cap relief in half the time.
Pepper- I know Miami is really in the gutter right now, but would they pull th etrigger on that trade? I doubt it. If they did, boy would we have a good lineup for next year.
I agree with you on the availability of Jackson. He's been playing very well & I honestly doubt that they'd part with him. However, that would be an ideal trade for us if we trade Moochie away & with the defensive skills that T-Mo has shown so far, NY might consider it. After all they've been a defensive minded team for the last few years. The more I look at it the more I agree with you about trade #3 being the best one for us. With the defensive prowess that T-Mo has shown so far, it would be a shame to give up on him developing his offensive game & eventually becoming our starting SF. Also, with Miller/Griffin at the center position, Collier could be expendable. With Chicago losing Oakley at the end of the year, they're going to be thin at the PF position with just Fizer, unless they intend to move Chandler to the PF spot. But, he'll be inexperienced & may cause a dramatic drop off when he comes in. KT could start with Fizer coming off the bench, which would solidify the position. Having watched Moochie play for us, I truely believe that he'd be a starter on the Bulls & could provide the spark they need to lead their team. This move would also open the door for Curry & Chandler to get all the playing time at center & develop their games. This wouldn't be a bad 10 man rotation with time: C: Curry/Chandler PF: KT/Fizer SF: Artest/Mercer SG: Robinson/Hassell PG: Moochie/Anthony I'm not sure what type of game Ward brings to the table, but we do have Brown & Torres that could fill Moochie's role in the 3 guard rotation very well. Again, the prize in this trade for us would be Miller. Othella & Ward or Jackson would just be comparable replacements for the loss of Moochie/KT. I agree with you about the chemistry issue, but if we were to do this during the off season, then they would be able to have a full training camp together. Also, the team is going to have to readjust, chemistry wise, to Taylor & Rice's return anyway. The only new starter would be Miller, with Othella & Jackson or Ward being the backups. I truely believe that Othella would be a comparable replacement for KT & that Brown and/or Torres could fill Moochie's role in the guard rotation. By making these moves, we would solidify every position on the team at least 2 deep for several years. If I'm Chicago & these two deals are placed before me, I'd have to consider the 3 way with Houston involved. Again, Chicago gets 2 starters in Moochie/KT for Miller & might be able to negotiate a compromise deal in regards to the Drew obligation. Which, would also be advantageous to the Rockets, because the longer we wait to use the leverage the lower the value becomes. Also, Jackson (while he's still very effective) is old by NBA standards, but the trade could work while they groom Crawford. The Miller for Ward trade won't work, because both players have a trade kicker attached. They'd almost assuredly have to include a third team to make that deal work & I don't think Eisley would be worth giving up Miller for.
