Oeilpere, what's with.......

I do not think anybody is claiming that MoT is an All-Star. I think it is obvious that the organization is very high on him. Most people on this thread believe that Griffin is a very big part of our future. The question is who best complements his game. KT, MoT or someone else?

 

I agree with everything OP posted... except...

I'm curious about something . Hypothetically, if the Rockets traded the #1-3 pick (if we lucked out) for the #7-9 or so and the #15 or so, who do you see us taking with the lotto pick?

To me, Mike Dunleavy seems like a good choice in that range, but have you heard any "dream scenarios" coming out of the front office?

 

Moe

Sorry Moe, didn’t see your post yesterday before I left work.

Rice

Rice was an accommodation to the situation and one that they thought they had a good handle on. His contract was burdensome, but the upside was that he could add a dimension to the offense that would take full advantage of the new zone rules.

That obviously didn’t work out. He was largely ineffective when he played, which may be due to not knowing the strict system that RT runs. It may be that he just was trying to find his niche, or was too “laid back” in his assumption of duties. Personally, I think it may have been a combination of all these excuses with a little bewilderment and “rest and relaxation” thrown in mix. I mean, dang this system is strict in its positioning phase, but it is not unknown to Rice. He’s been there before. It also does not excuse the execution of the play when his name was called.

A nice try at an experiment that did not prove out. Rice will not be mentioned a lot when it comes to the “future of the franchise” press releases. May not even get a nod when he deserves it. But he will get lots of spin when it comes to the trade table. The big thing is unloading him without hurting us too much.


Speed Game

I was talking about how our system is designed to run quickly AND how our roster has some very, very athletic players.

Let me explain my point:

The system we use is basically a broad example of a flex type of offense. The ball carrier holds the ball and the other four adjust to how the opponents defensively react. The key to this set is the ability for the non-ball carriers to position themselves (adjust) and move (motion) within the parameters, while the ball carrier finds them at some optimum point (non-ball carrier is mismatched, he’s doubled off, or he has a clear path). Success is largely measured by how quick this is performed. Without a decision-to-execution minimal time frame, the defense is given the opportunity to re-react/re-adjust (collapse to the drive, attack the carrier, reduce defense to a two-covering-three prevent, etc …).

That is our system. That’s what RT runs most of the time. Designed to be successful if run quickly. We have the speed, meaning the athleticism on the roster. The set back or failure with this type of system is it only requires one of the non-ball carriers to be out of sync and the defense easily captures the advantage. One guy to unposition himself, one guy to move a little slower than what is needed, or only one guy to pin/infringe on a teammtes parameter. We are inconsistent now because we are essentially a very young team and haven’t developed all of the discipline necessary, or we don’t fully execute when given the opportunity to do so.

But my point was - we are doing all we can right now, with the personnel presently on the roster. Our quick game has reached as far as it can go with the personnel we have. We need to either change the system (which I do not think they should do). Or, we wait for some players to “get better” - i.e. better decision-makers, better postioners, better finishers (of which I contend KT is all most “at his best” now, Cato IS at his best now and Griffin is doing well, but will probably decline a little before he gets another spurt of improvement).

Remember now, with any of these players, only one has to falter during a possession to defeat the flex offense and give the defense the opportunity to defeat it. My contention is that we are still missing one more crucial player that will command respect every time he is on the floor.


BayWork:

Griffin has said repeatedly that he doesn’t want to play at the three. He likes being in the mix of things. Likes to be around the ball. He may have some valid points, too. At the three he would be less effective at blocks, steals, rebounds. But the Rockets, like all teams still have to find a comfortable blend where maybe not all of a player’s abilities are exploited everytime he is on the floor. That may be the case with Griffin at the three. Personally I think MoTay and Griffin on the court at the same time would be very complimentary for each of them. A the four/five? Again I think it’s just his desire to be around the ball. Personally, I don’t like him at the five at present. He doesn’t have a enough of a rounded game to be the center. Yet.

I don’t know what Steve meant by that “intimidator” remark. I suspect that he means Griffin is making guys change their shots, think while going in, etc… .

Let me reiterate from a thread a couple of weeks ago – I think that it doesn’t matter what you call a guy when it comes to a position, just whether he can do the job or not. I think this homogenous blend of positions where a guy plays say … a three at the offensive end and a four at the defensive end is getting more and more prevalent all the time. This may be an academic point in some debates, but I still think it’s relevant to players that are jostling over positions. RT is pretty smart. He sticks anyone on the floor who will matchup as he sees it. I think one of points was that I could see MoTay and Griffin on the floor at the same time at either a 3-4(Griff) or 4-5 spot(MoTay) than I could see Griff and KT sharing the same duties.

Haven

No dream scenarios that I heard, but I have been busy and my “Rocket time” is way down and get lower as I change jobs and move. But I still say they will pass those picks (ours-most probably somewhere around 7-13 plus Toronto’s 16-22) to use as trade bait to unload at least one current player and pick up at least one more piece of the puzzle. Regardless of what Les said yesterday, they will be looking to trade that draft before they use it.


I gotta get back to work.

Cheers,guys.

 

Great info op, as always. Just one question

What are the Rockets going to do with players in their roster filling for free agency after this year? (Brown, Torres, Williams and Willis) I think Oscar and maybe Tierre should be resigned, but if I thinking right, we have 3 draft picks this year (2 first rounders, 1 2nd round), and possibly some player coming as a free agent. So what moves are the Rockets thinking to do? Maybe trade some players or draft picks?

 

OP, thanks for taking the time for such a detailed reply. When you say our offense is very "strict", I wonder if it is too complicated for some of our players, or if some of our players think they are too good to play within the confines of the system.

It sure seems like something is going wrong when one guy is pounding the ball on the floor and the other 4 are basically standing and watching. I don't know how that could elicit any reaction from the defense to take advantage of. It would appear that Rudy has zip control over his players.

OP, please tell me our 3 guards are going to start to implement this offense the way it is designed. Tell me it's not that difficult to learn and the little three will soon be befuddling defenses with their speed, athleticism and decisions. Lie to me , please.

 

Another short break from work:

Geo: Barring any magic wand going off i9n someone’s neighborhood with landslide and windfall offers dropping in our laps -
1. I think Oscar is solid at the bench. He will be resigned (his contract was a one year deal this summer) in the off season.
2. They want to keep Willis. One of the reason that I never got to when answering the questions about Rice, was that Rice offered a veteran and leadership role to a very young team. Willis if anything, is the epitome of veteran and leadership role models in my estimation. They want him, they will keep him.
3. Walt is a question mark, but unless he wants to play for minimum (which they would probably pay IF they wanted to keep him) and IF some team players (Steve and Cat) don’t get crazy and start demanding Yoda Williams, he will be gone.
4. Brown could stay unless they end up with w serviceable PG. Frankly, this team needs three PG’s. But, this year’s draft will have an abundance of PG’s available and some are starters (or near starters) in this league. Because of that, the teams usually recycle a couple of guys off the roster to make way of the new PG crop, it may be possible to get a relatively good veteran PG as an add on of another trade. I wanted to see more of Brown this year and that was prompted me to stick this on my wish list – trade Mooch so we can get his value back now, and play Brown to see what he has before the off season.


Moe:

“Strict” meaning that it requires patience and discipline in the positioning, “strict” at it requires constant assessment and readjustment, which comes mainly from experience and practice. But it is a variation on all flexes. They all do roughly the same thing. That thing Jackson does in LA is a kind of flex. It pivots on three key players and so they call it a triangle. It is the same on other teams.

Admittedly, the college game is not as intricate, but man, if you are a pro and have practiced the same drill since arriving at camp … the positioning (where I am supposed to be to start, and where I go if XYZ moves here, or there) should eventually start to sink in. As I said, I think they are at the peak of the effectiveness at positioning now, their execution lacks consistency and of course with young guys they get impatient and abandon their spot early, or get there late or try something outside the parameters. Then when you are on a losing streak or your over-manned you lose confidence and rush your shots. All that work for no finish (poor execution again).

The guards implementing the scheme - They are not the only key to all of this. They are told to hold until a certain person rotates off their guy, or until a double is thrown at you, etc… . But the other four have more to do with the direction the ball is coming from than anyone. They dictate the direction of the pass. It requires the movement of the non-ball carrier four in answer to the PG position and the defensive reactions.

The scheme therefore requires everyone to be on the same page. It requires study and practice. It requires a short rotation of the depth chart. It requires confidence. It requires patience. It requires athleticism to be expelled at the fourth quarter as well as the first two. It also requires rewarding the man who adjusted properly and is now open - even if he just shot 3-10 (that one bugs the hell out of the fans!).

 

Op- I do enjoy reading your detailed opinions and most are good, but I do have to disagree with you on something. The Griffin-Taylor complimentary thing.

I know anything is possible and through certain situations the combo might work, but in all intensive purposes it won't work as a 3/4 combo. It would be different if either could punish a smaller man, but neither can. Both are perimeter oriented big men. Griffin is a long range shooter and Taylor is a more mid range shooter, but both are outside players. I know Griffin is young and doesn't have the bulk or stregnth to do it every play, but he should post more than what we've seen.

Taylor on the other hand has the bulk, but tends to float and shoot jumper also facing up. The jumper is good, but most teams will take that and live by it.

On the other hand, neither has the lateral quickness, just like our other 3's to keep up with perimeter players period. So now what happens is thier smaller players get off easy and we send Griffin or taylor chasing smaller guys thru screens and stuff. The advantage we should have would disappear.

I know people will first point to Minn, then NJ and say it could work. T'Wolves is a pipe dream because Garnett is much quicker side to side than Griffin and Taylor, plus he will post up a smaller man. NJ replica can be used since offensively Van Horn is similar to Eddie, but Kenyon runs and finishes better than both our forwards. This model can be duplicated and might even be successful, but I would feel a little better knowing Eddie is blocking shots and rebounding at the 4 and whoever either Odom or Lewis were at the 3. Although he has had problems, Odom would be ideal since Rudy loves Steve off the ball. Odom would give us a luxury of running the offense with him and still maintain the offensive integrity of Steve,Cat,and Griffin.

I know its a lot of if's and wishes, but maybe something can be done to improve this team. Maybe the Taylor/Thomas and Griffin thing will work. I don't care who the other forward is as long as Griffin is one of them. Stranger combinations have worked, maybe that one will.

 

OP, again, thanks for the time for the response. I understand what you're saying about the non-ball carrier players heavily influencing the movement of the ball. If these players are mostly responsible for the stagnant ball movement, then why are the guards content to walk the ball up the court and dribble until there are fewer than 10 seconds on the shot clock? Why aren't they pushing the ball to the frontcourt and screaming at people to move if nothing is happening? I think it is because they would rather dribble and then try and create than pass the ball and lose control of it. It seems like it may be an ego thing.

Lee, I agree that the Rockets should try to get the ball to Griffin low more. However, I have seen the guards ignore him when he did have good low post position and they pass the ball back out to the perimeter, instead. Eddie has a quick turn around and release, and uses the glass as well as anyone I've seen lately. He gets the ball when he is outside, but gets ignored when he gets good position down low.

 

I think Glen Rice gets overly hammered here; are the Rockets this massively pessimistic about his potential to contribute? Yes, he sucked when he played this year. But my recollection is Mo Taylor sucking big wind his first half of the season. But, once he learned Rudy's idiot-savante system, he flourished. Shandon had his chance, he flopped. Mobley had his chance, he thrived. Eddie is bignning to thrive after a rough start. And Cato... oh, forget it, I don't want to jinx it. The point is, the handful of games Rice played is not even a first date with the guy. Its not even flirting in fifth period study hall.

When you get down to brass tacks, Rice is a s-h-o-o-t-e-r. Screw the posting up, screw the isolation, screw the defense. The dude can shoot, and you don't have to have amazing wheels to do that well.

I would absolutely -- and semi-enthusiastically -- hold on to him for at least another year, because if he morphs into some latter-day Alex English or even Dale Ellis who is automatic from the arc, we are a <u>vastly</u> improved offensive team. It would open up everything.

Yes, he's expensive, but he is also OURS, and expecting him to become a suicide bomber is not out of realm of possibility -- even probability -- so lets chill out and keep him. No one is going to give us anything in return, so why bother unloading him? For the sake of it? That sounds more like frustration and resentment of his $ (even Hakeem guilt?) than good basketball.

Let's allow Rice get himself well, learn the system, and give him an audition. He is not the smae guy he used to be, but that does not mean he is bust. He has earned some patience, and on paper, he is an ideal candidate for the "oh-crap-we-left-that-guy-open" killer in our system. Furthermore, it seems to me that we don't want to unload a guy whose stock is uncharateristically low -- his value to us and the league is very likely to rise.

The question: Why so impatient with Rice when we will spend a decade on Shandon, Walt, Cato and whoever else?

Oops, I just answered it myself. We just were not able to unload those guys. Thanks for the answer in advance, OP.
Later
CBFC

 

Topsy-turvy: doesn't the outside shooting provided by the guards open up the middle for the big guys? I guess that's Bobby Knight basketball.

 

Why does it takes players an entire yr to learn the rockets "complex " system and other players can change teams and become immediate contributers? I don't ever remember Taylor playing lights out last yr. His high month was the first and last in which both he played 1 game apeice and avg 16ppg. Yes Glen Rice is a shooter, but he is a move shooter like Kerr ,Miller and yes old school Dale Ellis. He's better moving ,catching and rising instead of waiting all day for a pass.

Yes he is ours, but it was a mistake then and it clearly showed the blind thinking by brass when they thought about trade Hakeem for him in 92-93. Rudy has had a fettish for him and Walt williams and once both got here they were not as good as they thought. Of course Rudy and Carrol will always say the right things because thats them, but Rice was a mistake and getting avg players at best for a player that still had a good trade value was one too.

 

OP,

Watching this Dallas fiasco and going crazy.

So please explain it to me like I'm a four year old: why doesn't Griffin ever get any touches in the low block, or at least 15 feet from the basket? He's got a nice turnaround jumper, and playing him inside would also put him in much better offensive rebounding position whether or not he's taking the shot. I just feel like his abilities are being either wasted or overlooked.

Guess I just don't get it

Dallas Rocket

 

This post is interesting to read now....