Moochie Signed

Am I the only one who has thought to myself..."Gee, maybe the NBA should just say 'If we award an exception, then the player in question is NOT ALLOWED to come back that season'" To me, that would take care of having to get 75 different doctor's opinions and worrying about having egg on their faces like last year with Zo.

 

Hey 'pere, now that the Knicks have a medical exemption, does it make it more likely that Marc Jackson will sign with them? It looks like the Rockets aren't going to get their exemption until the Knicks' run out after this weekend.

 

Yeah, NJRocket, I posed the same question a few days ago. The NFL's injured reserve keeps you out for the season. Why doesn't the NBA have such a designation?

 

Marc Jackson will have to make a gamble: If he waits for the Rockets, and they DON'T get the exception, and meanwhile the 3 days for the Knicks to use theirs expires, he's out of luck yet again.

Or if he signs with Knicks, while wanting to be a Rocket, but doesn't want to take the risk of the Rockets not getting the DPE, and the Rockets GET the DPE then he signed with a team he didn't want to be with, and misses out on ~500K.

I caught the Fox News last night, and they talked with Clyde. He is Fegan's "secret weapon". He said something like 'Moochie is a great young point guard. I'm just trying to help Dan and the Rockets get the true value for Moochie.' Thanks Clyde. You can sign him if you want if Fegan is trying to get his "fair value". In the meantime, you can help by giving us Omar Cook or Raef.

If we do let Moochie loose for $$ reasons, I don't think we can judge it as a good or bad move without knowing who's replacing him. It looks like things will go down soon.

 

Hey Cripee,
I like your scenario of using 3 to cover 2. Do you not think it could work the other way? I mean Cat backing up Steve if he goes down and having a good 2 to backup Cat? Cat was our point guard before Steve.

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I'm pretty sure the Player's Association would have something to say about that (nevermind the exception would allow one of the players to make more money). The PA will always complain when it feels one of the players is getting short-changed. In this case, Mo would be the one getting short-changed due to the fact that he is being "forced" to stay off the court. I hate whiny millionaires!!!

 

I dont see him signing a 1 year deal with the Knicks. Van Gundy uses an 8 man rotation and in that system, he wouldn't get to show his skills (or lack thereof) off enough to get a big contract next season...from what I can see...the Knicks will use Sprewell, Houston, Camby, Thomas, Spoon, Jackson, Ward and Shandon as their rotation for now. I dont see any minutes available for M Jax unless someone goes down.

 

If by "competent" you mean proven ability to run an offense this season, that is what I said, too. I said that the argument to not pay for a "competent" backup on the Rockets has different financial dynamics with us than other teams, since we don't need to pay more than minimum for a backup for Mobley.

Let's not discuss the ideal scenario of getting vets or quality rookie scale players to back both of them....which seems to be your point in the next quote.

Sam, you seem to be stretching the parameters of the Rockets system with that statement. I have trouble following your point, because a lot of this is outside the realm of the Rockets' current system. For instance, Francis is not a floor general 100% of the time that he's on the court, as it is right now; Mobley runs plenty of pnr and iso sets with Francis on the weakside. Secondly, Francis often runs sets when Moochie is in. The point of Moochie being in the game is not to make him a floor general, it is either to rest Francis or Mobley, or to create mismatches with 3 guards. This is not to say Moochie never runs the show, because he does. It is to say the Rockets' SG position is a playmaker position...with or without Moochie in the game. Don't confuse our PG position with that of Seattle, Phoenix or Utah. That is not how we play. Basing discussion on different systems is fine, but that is not me...I like to restrict my discussion to the hand that is dealt, so to speak.

Further, I'm not discussing the case of serious injury to Mobley. Why would I make a point that we need competent backups for both positions, in the event of serious injury to either? Of course that would be great, my point is Rudy likes to play Francis at SG and has developed a quality backup PG to allow it. Conversely, Rudy no longer has Mobley playing PG, so we can't really say he would be Francis's backup in the event of serious injury to Steve.

Sam, let's not argue this point about Francis not being the SG backup. Rudy plays Francis as a SG. He is on record (or CD is, can't remember) that Francis is the backup to Mobley. We do not hear Rudy or CD say we need a competent backup to Mobley.

<b>That said, let's talk about your world of Francis the 100% floor general</b>

Now if you insist on talking about scenarios that are against what Rudy is saying....that is, you believe Francis isn't a backup SG....then you are viewing Mobley's backup as someone who must fill a long term injury, as you state? All that means is you are saying that not only does Francis need a competent backup, but Mobley does too.

Am I making sense? Since Rudy says that Francis is Mobley's backup, and Francis plays a lot with Moochie on the court right now; then we only need 3 veteran quality contracts for 2 positions, and deal with serious injury when it happens.

<b>The beauty of Francis being versatile enough to play SG</b>

From my reading of the facts to date, Rudy will start Francis at SG if Mobley goes down. That is the beauty of versatile players. You use them in multiple positions when required. Moving Francis to starting SG if Mobley goes down is called dealing with a serious injury to a 40mpg star when it happens. Francis affords us the ability to use him as backup to Mobley when health and not worry about a serious injury to Mobley until it happens. Rudy obviously has other things to worry about in filling up the other role player positions than worry about a serious injury to Mobley, because when Mobley is healthy all he needs is a proven backup PG for Rudy to implement a rich system based on backcourt firepower coming at you for 48 minutes. Makes sense to me....and explaining that is my only point. I'm not trying to reinvent the Rockets outside of what Rudy has been doing and saying.

 

No, because that would fundamentally change our system when everyone is healthy. Right now, a major part of our system is using Francis's versatility to slide him over to the SG to rest Mobley and to implement a 3-guard system. We have not seen Mobley play PG since his rookie year. So to me, Rudy is not considering going with a minimum salary backup for Francis as a means to afford a proven-player contract to back-up Mobley. One of those two 40mpg stars needs a a proven-player to back him up, and our system points to the PG position.

and as I said to SamCassell, seeking two proven-players to back both of them is a wasted luxury that is better spent on the role player positions in our system. We are flat out not going to spend an exception on a SG, nor would many argue that we should trade for one, either.

 

Dang ... ain't it great to have Crispee back again!!!!!!

 

I knew I could count on a good response from you crispee. (Even though you've mischaracterized my statements completely!)

I don't think you understood my point. Perhaps I needed to flesh it out a little. Let's say there is a given scale for salaries for 'X' type players. "X" could stand for defensive centers, rebounding backup 4s, sweet shooters who bring little else in the Dell Curry/ Hubert Davis mode, or proven backup point guards. Here we are talking about the "X" classification of backup PGs who have had at least 1 good season on a team but have never been proven as a starting PG. We both agree that Mooch falls into this category, as do several other players. We can both agree that Mooch is probably at the high end of this classification scheme. And we can agree that the Rockets definitely need one of these "X" players.

Don't overpay for "X"!!! Simply because a given piece fits into your scheme doesn't mean you have to rewrite the pay scale for X players. Pay the going rate, but don't knuckle under to a hard-nosed agent and overpay for a very replaceable part.

Example: from 1989 to 1995, the Rockets had Otis Thorpe. He played both starting power forward and backup center to Hakeem. When Dream rested, Thorpe slid over smoothly to center. When Dream went down with injuries (which were not infrequent), Thorpe started. Meaning, we were able to use a single, backup player to fill 2 spots, due to OT's versatility. That integral backup position was filled admirably by Larry Smith from '90 to '92. In 92, Carl Herrera came in and did a fine job until 1995. Smith was a vital, necessary part of our team for a few years, but he was far from irreplaceable. In fact, Herrera might have been better. Similarly, Moochie is a key part of our team, and I'd miss him if he left. But he's not a proven starter and doesn't deserve to be paid like one. He is a good backup point guard, one of a number of good backup guards in the league.

Find exactly where I said Francis was 100% a floor general. He's not; he is a hybrid player. A superstar who can do several different things on the court. I am simply saying that I want him to be able to work on his pure point guard skills, to add to his repetoir (sp?). I feel that, which the 2 guard position is certainly a playmaking one in the Rockets offense, playing that position full-time would not allow Steve as much of an opportunity to create for others as he has at the 1. And are you forgetting that (1) Steve very much wants to play the point guard spot, which is why he forced his way out of Vancouver, and (2) his contract is up fairly soon?

See above. Quite putting words in my mouth! I am not even saying that Mobes needs a competent backup. I do think that the lack of a backup SG leaves us diminished whenever one of 3 guys gets injured, since we use the backup PG so much in the current offense. What I am saying is that you shouldn't use Steve's ability to play the 2 to justify paying Moochie as a starter, based on the possibility that Mooch could start if either Francis or Cat went down. Number one, I haven't see Mooch prove himself yet as a starting guard. Two, my guess is that in the event of a significant injury to Cat, Rudy would try to bring in a competent 2 guard at that point to start. See my points above, especially about Steve wanting to be a point guard. Mooch should not receive a disproportionate contract on the off notion that he could start on this team long-term if neccessary, because I am telling you that will not happen. And if it did, we'd be so dead in the water that it wouldn't matter who we had coming in: we cannot afford to lose Cat or Steve and hope to compete for a playoff spot in the Western Conference, period. Five Moochies couldn't hold off armegeddon in that case.

Neither am I. Still, there is absolutely no need to overpay for an exciting but not quick, clutch but short, good passing but mediocre defense, backup point guard. What Rudy has been doing (ie the Rockets offense) will not grind to a halt absent Moochie Norris.

 

SamCassell,

For a poster who claims not to talk outside the realm of the Rocket's system, your moniker betrays you...hehe.

Your main point to not overpay for "X" is perfectly fine. It is indeed what CD is doing, no? I'm saying that, out of all our positions, the backup PG position is the one to accept overpaying, because it allows us to have no Mobley backup.

Your counterpoint seems to be that Mobley needs a backup, because Francis is not that. Thus you seem not to agree in 3 quality players manning 2 positions. I'm just making a Rocket's argument. Aren't you making this a generic argument applicable for every team. You are certainly making too much of a deal out of how a Mobley serious injury would effect Francis. Rudy/CD don't appear to agree with your concerns, because Francis is his backup.

<b>discussing the rockets like a Scout vs a Coach</b>

Scouts don't get to suggest changes; coaches do. My interest in cc.net is to talk about what I see like a scout would. I do not like to suggest changes. I used to in the mid-90's, but those discussions always seemed to amount to speculation, theory, and history.

As for my belief that you frequently talk outside the realm of what I see on the court....I'm not going to argue (if that what this is). You consistently make solid comments to me, yet express beliefs that would require the Rockets to change their system. That is my opinion. I've talked to you a lot...and that is my opinion of a lot of what you say. You are more general and theoretical, while I enjoy taking the specific and practical approach of a scout. That means that I try to limit my discussion to exactly what I see and hear without discussing system changes like a coach would do. I may not see things right, but I like to limit myself to at least attempting it and discussing what we see on the court. to each his own

curious...do you see the difference at all? Do you see how a scout wannabe could care less about variables not currently present?

<b>So what are we dealt?</b>

We are dealt right now with no backup SG and no....absolutely NO...plans to change that. That is because Francis is the backup SG. If Mobley goes down, we will slide Francis over until we can get a starter off waivers or something, whether SamCassell cringes or not. Francis has to play it, and he can while still being the primary playmaker and distributor...just like Iverson does.

Thus, our system is designed for 3 players manning 2 positions. The best way to prepare for a major injury is to make sure the 3rd player is starter-ready right now. Overpay that position if need be....but of course, try not to.

 

crispee, sorry if my writing style has seemed too theoretical for your tastes, in the past. Like Opie says, it's good to have you back! I enjoy talking basketball with you, even though you are at times a little condescending in your expressed knowledge of all things related to the Rockets' scheme. You are well-versed in the playbook, I will admit. Still, I suppose I just don't see things as rigidly as you do.

You'll have to find another thread to analyze my overactive theoretical mind, though. Here my whole focus has been very limited and concrete: an attempt to rebut your argument that re-signing Moochie to an inflated price is justified. Here I have done nothing but agree with your assessment of the Rockets' system, and Cat's/Steve's/backup PG's role in that system. I have expressed, in passing, an interest in seeing Steve improve his passing skills, only because I see his unrealized potential in that area. I hope I didn't bore you with that statement.

Our only disagreement has been in an evaluation of Moochie's talent level. To me, that is directly relevant to the topic, and not a theoretical side-trip. You seem to think he is not only a fine backup, but a quality fill-in starter if the need arises. I disagree, and believe that he is unproven in that role. It would be theoretical to assume he can produce as a starter. Accordingly, I wouldn't pay him as much as he and Fegan are asking.

 

Is this a BBS or courtsey seminar!!!! In this discussion, Moochie is important for chemistry more than being a PG..that's the dilemma the management faces now!!!

 

No.

It is morbid to think Moochie (or player "X") needs to be a starter. You appear to want to build a team around the backup 1 and 2 starting in case Mobley or Francis have a season-ending injury...that is not our system....we are not built around supportin multiple injuries, and I don't think many teams are. We are built around Francis playing a hybrid game of PG and SG. Thus Francis is Mobley's backup and we should consider overpayinmg at backup PG to support that in case of injury to Mobley or Francis.