1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Missile Defense flails...

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by SamFisher, Jun 20, 2003.

  1. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    61,864
    Likes Received:
    41,391
    This is actually a real headline. :eek:
    Why doesn't the small government crowd agitate about this? This has got to be one of the most colossal government wastes of money ever.

    Look, I'm all for spenidng money for defense against terrorism and rogue states, but I would rather spend money on 1. defenses that work (special forces, pay raises for the military, other homeland defense stuff like port security); 2. against threats that are a higher priority (suitcase bombs hidden in cargo containers, dirty bombs, etc.)


    Missile misses target, officials call it a success

    (CNN) --The Missile Defense Agency conducted a missile defense test over Hawaii Wednesday, and while the warhead did not strike the target, officials said they still considered the exercise a success.

    "I wouldn't call it a failed test, because the intercept was not the primary objective," said Chris Taylor, a spokesman for the MDA. "It's still considered a success in that we gained great engineering data. We just don't know why it didn't hit."

    At 1:15 p.m. (7:15 p.m. ET), a target was launched from the Pacific Missile Range Facility on the Hawaiian island of Kauai, Taylor said. About two minutes later, a standard missile-3 (SM-3), the developmental missile for the Aegis program, was launched from the USS Lake Erie, about 160 nautical miles off the coast of Kauai, he said.

    "All of the stages separated and the kinetic warhead tracked the target, but did not intercept the target," Taylor said.

    Three previous flight tests were successful, Taylor said, but they used an earlier version of a system to control the warhead's aim and maneuvering. Information from the earlier tests was used for a new design of the system, which was used in Wednesday's test, the Defense Department said.

    Taylor said part of the missile's navigation and guidance control did not work in the test, but "we obviously don't know exactly what went wrong."

    The MDA and the Navy manage the Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense Program, and Raytheon Missile Systems is the prime contractor for the SM-3 missile, the Defense Department said.

    The MDA program came under scrutiny earlier this month from two Democratic senators who said the agency is in danger of getting off track, and its efforts impaired, because of President Bush's order for the Pentagon to begin fielding a missile defense capability by 2004.

    Sens. Carl Levin, D-Michigan, and Jack Reed, D-Rhode Island, examined a General Accounting Office report that showed the MDA was starting system integration with "immature technology and limited testing."

    Levin said the report showed that the administration's planned missile defense system will not be fully tested or proven to work under realistic conditions.
     
  2. goophers

    goophers Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2000
    Messages:
    888
    Likes Received:
    16
    Being an engineer, I can totally understand how a 'failed' experiment can still be very useful. But it still sounds like spin to me.

    Does anyone actually support this program outside the administration? (I haven't seen a poll on this). It's certainly possible to do, and it can protect us some, but after 9/11 I hoped they would drop this when it became apparent that these types of threats aren't the biggest problem we face. At least on a cost/return basis, this project has just seemed terrible from the first moment I heard about it (er, actually, when I heard the huge pricetag associated with it).
     
  3. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    61,864
    Likes Received:
    41,391
    More disturbing is the dumbing down of the testing that has been reported in the past (making the dummy warheads more cognizable to the interceptor and/or eliminating the number of MIRVs altogether).

    A take on today's test, and the inherent problems in calling it a success:

    war stories
    The Pentagon's Laughable Weapons Test
    Fire missile. Miss target completely. Success!
    By Fred Kaplan
    Posted Friday, June 20, 2003, at 11:23 AM PT


    It looked like a headline from the Onion, but it was from CNN and the story was real: "Missile Misses Target, Officials Call It a Success." The Pentagon's Missile Defense Agency had conducted a test the afternoon of June 18. A Standard Missile-3, fired from a Navy cruiser 160 miles off the Hawaiian island of Kauai, tried—but failed—to intercept a target missile that had been launched a few minutes earlier from the island's test range. And so it seemed another setback had afflicted President Bush's most cherished military program.

    However, the Missile Defense Agency's spokesman, Chris Taylor, saw the test differently. "I wouldn't call it a failure," he told CNN, "because the intercept was not the primary objective. It's still considered a success, in that we gained great engineering data. We just don't know why it didn't hit."

    Oh, it's hard to be a satirist these days.

    The thing is, Taylor's reasoning is common in the Pentagon, and always has been, for tests not just of the missile-defense program but of all weapons programs.

    Officials planning a test usually divide it into several discrete phases. If only one of the phases goes off successfully, and if the others at least yield some interesting data, then the test is marked down as a "success" or, if it was an almost (but not quite) total failure, a "partial success." In the June 18 missile defense test, these phases would have included a) launching the test missile; b) detecting and tracking the target-missile in midflight; c) transmitting information about the target back to control panels on the ship; and d) intercepting the target missile.

    The system passed a) through c) with flying colors. Three out of four isn't bad. Call it "success." That's what happened, even though the point of missile defense is to intercept missiles. In fact, the specific aim of this test was to assess a new solid-state engine for the interceptor's guidance system. It now appears that the two missiles didn't collide because the engine malfunctioned. In other words, by any serious measure, broad or narrow, the test was an abject failure, regardless of how the Pentagon grades it.

    "This happens all the time," one Pentagon official told me with a sigh. "It's incredible."

    Just recently, the Air Force tested a new type of air-to-air missile for its F-22 stealth fighter plane. The missile missed its target by a long shot, but its firing mechanism worked, so the test was counted as a "success."

    The problem with this practice is that, when it comes time to decide whether to move ahead on a particular weapons program, an assistant secretary or deputy chief of staff, not having time to study the raw test data, will look at the summary report. The sheet will say, "Eight successes, three partial successes, one failure." That will seem pretty good, and the program will graduate to the next stage of development. At some point, the flaws might get ironed out in the field, but at great cost, not only financial but—if the weapon has to be used on the battlefield in the meantime—strategic and human.

    Of course, the Pentagon's standard of success in testing is not entirely ridiculous. In the early stages of a weapon's R & D, especially if the program involves advanced technology, there is real value in learning practically anything about its performance. If one part of the test fails but the other parts work fine, it might legitimately be called a success. However, President Bush plans to start deploying the missile-defense program in the fall of 2004. In order to do so, he formally abrogated the 30-year-old Anti-Ballistic-Missile Treaty. He has requested, and Congress has approved, $9.1 billion for the program next year, and he plans to ask for more than $10 billion the following year. Either the tests should be judged by the standards of an advanced program, or the program should be scaled back to what it really is, despite its advocates' fervent efforts: an interesting but still quite primitive research project.
     
  4. Woofer

    Woofer Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2000
    Messages:
    3,995
    Likes Received:
    1
    This is no different than most of the other *tests* on missile defense. We're going to pay a lot of money for a system that is in the field by 2004 come hell or high water.
    Considering their standards for accuracy, they would have to miss about fifty and they would call the kill ratio greater than ninety percent ala the Gulf War I and the Patriot system...

    Small comfort when we have to use the system for real and these welfare defense contractors and workers are long gone.


    So many abuses, so little time.

    http://www.pogo.org/p/x/archivedefense.html#missile
     
    #4 Woofer, Jun 20, 2003
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2003
  5. wouldabeen23

    wouldabeen23 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2002
    Messages:
    2,026
    Likes Received:
    270
    ICBM's are the very LEAST of the problems this country has to worry about--it was pie-in-the-sky during Regan's admin and has been since ICBM's have been in use. Soviet bloc missle systems, the other most advanced weapons we would encounter, have had counter-measures against missle defense for years. They use inflated baloons in front of the war-heads to confuse targeting systems--and that is just one method, many more exist. Pork-barrel at it's finest...
     
  6. treeman

    treeman Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 1999
    Messages:
    7,146
    Likes Received:
    261
    Three words: North Korea.

    Either we go to war with them now before they have dozens of warheads and long-range warheads to put on ICBMs they will have not too far from now, or we go to war later when they have lots of warheads sitting on top of ICBMs. Or we can do it later and not have to worry about nuclear-tipped ICBMs. Or we can just wait them out - sit and do nothing until they crumble internally, possibly avoiding any war - and still not have to worry if they decide to take a chunk of the US with them...

    It gives you more palatable options in dealing with defense issues than you would otherwise have.
     
  7. FranchiseBlade

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    51,810
    Likes Received:
    20,466
    Spending defense dollars that could be marked for fighting terrorism, on a system that won't work is who's idea of good policy?

    Even if somehow the system worked, it would become obsolete almost immediately.
     
  8. treeman

    treeman Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 1999
    Messages:
    7,146
    Likes Received:
    261
    For starters, it will work. Most past tests have been successful, and it is not at all uncommon for a project to fail at various tests - that is, after all, how they get the bugs out of the system, by testing it. The technological hurdles will be overcome, of that there is little doubt by any analyst.

    And would you not classify nuclear blackmail or nuclear (or other WMD) missile attack by a nation such as Iran or North Korea as terrorism? I would. (and don't say "well, that's different, that's war - terrorism is a form of war)

    And why would it be obsolete? It would make any missile attack that was not overwhelmingly powerful obsolete. I cannot think of when a missile defense system such as is planned would become obsolete. I can see it being quite useful for at least the next several decades.
     
  9. mc mark

    mc mark Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 1999
    Messages:
    26,195
    Likes Received:
    471
    How is this going to stop a suitcase nuke?
     
  10. treeman

    treeman Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 1999
    Messages:
    7,146
    Likes Received:
    261
    How is a tank going to stop a suitcase nuke? It's not, and it's a silly question, as all weapon systems are designed to counter only a limited scope of weaponry: tanks are good against any ground element, but fail against aircraft, ships, and large fortified bunkers; aircraft are effective against most ground units in the open, but are ineffective in jungles, forests, and to some extent mountains, and are easily defeated by bunkers; submarines are useful against ships, and newer ones can hit some ground targets, but they are totally ineffective against aircraft... All of these are ineffective against suitcase nukes - there is no defense against those except for good, aggressive intelligence operations.

    What is a missile defense good against? North Korean nukes for one. I won't mind spending the money if it saves our cities from future nuke attack, which is quite possible where they are concerned. Also aircraft and ballistic missiles such as SCUDs, if we develop a multilayered defense (we are) - it will also give us total air superiority, unlike anything we have seen before - as well as protect our troops from future SCUDs, FROGs, and other theater missiles that are often fired at them...
     
  11. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2001
    Messages:
    16,173
    Likes Received:
    2,826
    [​IMG]
    How the heck do you use flails (pictured above) for missile defense? :confused: :D
     
  12. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    61,864
    Likes Received:
    41,391
    Most tests have not been successful, although they were called, like the recent one, "successes". The ones that have been successful have been fixed--and the defense department has acknowledged this.

    Now, even if it did actually work, is it u seful to spend billions of dollars on this to counter the hypothetical North Korean ICBM when other national defnse needs go unmet? I really don't think so.


    Star Wars Spending Spree
    Billions for Missile Defense, peanuts for anti-terrorism.
    By Fred Kaplan
    Posted Thursday, November 7, 2002, at 2:58 PM PT


    With all the concern about dirty bombs, bioterrorism, and suicide bombers smashing airplanes into power plants, the public has pretty much forgotten about the Pentagon's ballistic-missile-defense program. (Wasn't that some nutty dream of Ronald Reagan's?) So, it may come as a shock to learn that President Bush will spend $7.4 billion on R&D for missile defenses next year. That's twice the sum that Reagan spent on "star wars" in his final year of office—and for a system that remains sketchily defined and technologically dubious, against an unlikely threat that lies years, if not decades, off. Meanwhile, to defend against "weapons of mass destruction" that we all fear might blow up on American streets next week, the administration is spending—well, not quite zip, but far, far less than would be needed for a minimally serious effort, on technology that exists right now.

    What's more, Congress has approved this $7.4 billion, for what is now simply called the Missile Defense Agency, without knowing where the money is going. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, who has been an avid MD supporter from way back, restructured the program into five budget categories, responding to the program's broad missions. These are, along with the amount appropriated in the Fiscal Year 2003 budget:

    Boost Defense Segment (space-based weapons to destroy enemy missiles just after they've been launched, or "boosted"), $800 million;


    Midcourse Defense Segment (weapons based on the ground, ships, and airplanes to attack enemy missiles in the arc of their trajectory), $3.2 billion;


    Terminal Defense Segment (ground- and ship-based weapons to shoot down enemy warheads as they plunge to their targets), $1.1 billion;


    Sensors Segment (the radar and other systems that warn of, and track, a missile attack), $400 million;


    Ballistic Missile Defense System Segment (the testing and communications networks that tie the other segments into a system), $1.1 billion.


    (The remaining $800 million is for Army surface-to-air missiles, most notably an upgraded version of the Patriot, that the Pentagon hopes to use in the system.)
    However, beyond some vague sub-categorizations, the Pentagon does not break these dollar figures down in any detail—not even in the "R-2 Budget Justification Book" that it provides to the congressional armed services committees. One congressional staff member told me, "The administration has done a masterful job of not providing real detail, not explaining what the money is for. We say, '$3.2 billion for midcourse defense—what does this mean? How much for developing this widget? How much for testing that?' They don't know, or they don't tell us."

    Instead, for Missile Defense, the Pentagon has created a "National Team" concept. The team consists of MDA officials and the MD contractors (mainly Lockheed-Martin, Boeing, and TRW). The idea is: Congress gives us a chunk of money; we'll figure out how to spend it once we have a better idea what we're doing. It would be as if the Navy presented a budget item called "Defense of Indian Ocean—$35 billion." A footnote might mention that the task involves aircraft, carriers, cruisers, frigates, missiles, radar, pilots, and sailors, but that the precise details—how many of these things, at what price per item—are still to be worked out. This is not the way the program was managed under Reagan, Bush I, or Clinton. Nor is it the way any other military program is managed, even now.

    A little scrutiny of the program would suggest that, despite the accelerated spending, things are not going very well. The Pentagon has boasted of tests in which an interceptor missile has knocked down a mock warhead ("a bullet hitting a bullet"). For example, on July 14, 2001, one of the first of these bull's-eyes, a 55-foot-long "kill vehicle," fired from Kwajalein Atoll in the Marshall Islands, soared to 140 miles above the Earth, homed in on a mock warhead that had been launched from Vandenberg Air Force Base in California, and slammed into it at 15,000 mph, smashing it to smithereens.


    However, in that test, by the MDA's admission, the mock warhead had been fitted with a beacon that transmitted a radio signal, making the target much "brighter" for the radar-guided kill-vehicle. The MDA defended this practice, noting that the test was not a simulation but rather a demonstration of principle. Such demonstrations are common in early-stage testing programs. But that's the point. After 18 years and $65 billion, this is still an early-stage program. And nobody knows when it will reach its late stage. The Justification Book runs budget estimates for Missile Defense, as it does for all other Department of Defense programs, out to Fiscal Year 2007. The final column is labeled "Cost to Completion"—in other words, how much more needs to be spent, after 2007, to complete the program. Usually there are numbers under that heading. For each segment of the Missile Defense program, the last column reads "CONT"—short for "continuing." Nobody knows when the program will be completed, or how much completion will cost. And this document is just talking about research, development, and testing. There's no pretense of making estimates for procurement or deployment.

    Ever since Sept. 11, few in Congress have felt like scrutinizing a program billed as the ultimate in homeland security—especially since the president has deemed it his No. 1 defense priority. But what makes the monumental vagueness of the administration's Missile Defense budget especially glaring is the contrast with comparable programs in the civil, domestic branches of Homeland Defense—programs designed to detect, track, and intercept chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons brought into this country, or transported to our cities, by car, truck, train, plane, or boat (all easier and cheaper means than launching them on the tips of ballistic missiles).

    Such programs do exist, but their funding is miserly. The Department of Energy has a division called the Nuclear Emergency Support Team, which is equipped with sensors—some on vans, a few on helicopters, most handheld—that can detect radiological emissions. But the personnel who staff this team are not permanent; they are on revolving, part-time loan from the DOE's national weapons labs. Before 9/11, these scientists participated in annual exercises. Now they are stretched beyond their limits.

    Several of these labs—Lawrence Livermore, Los Alamos, Sandia, and Brookhaven—have developed prototypes of more sophisticated sensors. One of them was deployed in Salt Lake City during the Olympic Games to sniff out biological agents in the atmosphere. A few radiological monitors have been set up, randomly and briefly, at key bridges and facilities in other cities, including New York. But no agency has allocated money to evaluate or coordinate these efforts, much less purchase the sensors in any quantity. The entire budget for radiological detection in the region from New York to Boston totals $400,000—barely enough to do a study of the requirements for a system (which, by the way, nobody has commissioned).

    A few specialists, who ask not to be identified, suggest some relatively cheap ideas. For $9 million, 100 officials in each of the 30 largest cities could be investigated for security clearances so they could sit down with DOE scientists and work out the most effective local measures. For $20 million per city, in many cases much less, emergency-management officials and scientists could set up a formal testing program. For $100 million, top weapons-lab scientists—who are currently competing for crumbs—could be brought together for a two-year project to look at existing projects in high-energy physics (say, those involving detection and measurement of very faint chemical and radiological signals) and figure out how to apply the technology to practical, deployable sensors. Many lab scientists are eager to do this work, but nobody's given them the money, much less a plan and certainly not a free pass
     
  13. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2000
    Messages:
    19,203
    Likes Received:
    15,373
    I think that the whole concept of a global kenetic ICBM shield is turning out to be the proverbial Reaganite white whale. Interception with a physical mass just doesn't seem to be tremendously effective, but the proponents have believed with the unshakeable faith in the shield for so long that when the situation changes, and technologies that do work come along, they can't adapt.

    Case in point is The Airborne Laser that is being developed for theater missle defense with some real startling successes, specifficaly with power sources and their deformable mirror which compensates for atmospheric distortions. For someone like North Korea, a more robust version of this system would actualy work. Where this doesn't fit the "dream" is that it has to be specifically targeted at an individual geographic area, and there are costs associated with having the system constantly "in the air" at all times which would limit the time you could keep it going. These problems can be mitigated, of course, in a limited situation like North Korea, and could even be used to protect South Korea, which is one of the main issues why the US has to be delicate with the Kim.

    The problem, of course, is that the "dream" of a missle shield was conceved looking through the lens of the cold war, when the Soviet Union was supposedly sitting with their finger on the trigger, ready to launch missles from anywhere in the world. Despite the fact that the situation has changed, "the dream" prevents the missle shield people from altering their plan in favor of a more reasonable and cost effective alternative, "believing" even in the face of evidence to the contrary, thus throwing money away.

    This adherence to dogma in spite of the evidence was also recently seen in the politicized excising of any mention of global warming in an EPA report by functionaries who have no expertise or scientific background.
     
  14. FranchiseBlade

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    51,810
    Likes Received:
    20,466
    It's going to work just like the patriots work? What a joke. The patriots do stop some missles, but unless this thing stops every single nuke then the results are disasterous. It doesn't work now, as the tests clearly show. It's easy to devise strategies to get through any such system, once it did supposedly work and is a complete waste of money.
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now