Okay, I'm not a Nuggets hater or anything. i actually have kinda liked the team since that 8th seeded playoff upset back in the mid 90s; but who would they be able to get as a free agent that could complement McDyess as well as a happy Van Exel and Lafrentz would have?
Ok sorry I thought you were a bit more mature than believing all the BBS crap that you read. The same positive BS was being spun on the Rockets/Portland trade a couple of years ago and only a few of us had the balls to say the trade stunk. Me and a few others were bashed for being pessimists when we not only said the trade stunk but we said we wouldn't even make the playoffs. I know that you have been reading about what moves the Nuggets are planning to make in the offseason as my cousin has been reading the same crap about getting Moses Malone out of retirement and whatnot....well I shouldn't say I know because you take stuff to personal, anyhow the way I see it no team who has made a major firesale has ever turned around to become a major free-agent hotspot. I'm not going to pretend to know the Nuggets situation because I don't know crap about Denver but what I do know is once an orginization gets a reputation as not being a winning organization then attracting good free-agents to come there is almost impossible. Just look at what you got in this trade and what it cost you. If I'm Dallas I pull the trigger on a Hardaway/Howard for Wahad/Johnson deal in a heart beat if the salaries matched. Denver could have gotten much much more for these guys had they been more patient. date signed length amount year it ends Juwan Howard ..........8/5/96 7 $105 million '03 Tim Hardaway .......... 8/22/01 3 $11.3 million t-opt '04 Donnell Harvey ........ 9/28/00 4 $4,413,866 t-opt '04 vs. Raef LaFrenz .......... 1/23/99 4 $12,086,502 '02 Avery Johnson ......... 7/19/01 3 $14,975,400 '04 Nick Van Exel ......... 8/3/99 7 $77 million p-opt '04 Tariq Abdul-Wahad .....8/1/00 7 $43.3 million '07 What I don't get is what you took offense to about what I said. Was it the fact that I made fun of your teams organization?! Because I know I didn't poke fun of you. If you didn't feel that the Nuggets got shafted then I apologize, I shouldn't have put you with the 97.342% of Nuggets fans who did feel they got shafted.
You are in good company.....Jerry Krause and Jerry Reinsdorf said the same thing...have a nice summer.
like ive said, dont compare the nuggets to the bulls, a poorly run team. how come we cant get compared to orlando - they signed players? my point is i think we are in the middle, and almost in our own category. we arent a hot spot for FA (did get dice at least) but we arent the bulls, not even close. top class arena, top flight organization, plus we will have two nice rooks and dice to court rookies (we wont have terrible talent). its a start...
well your stats are off my friend. "Just look at what you got in this trade and what it cost you." the trade COST US raef and one really bad upcoming season of basketball. what we GAINED was a ton of cap room, trade flexibilty, a new start, dumping bad attitudes, and a slight better pick (maybe). considering our situation i think the benefits outweigh the costs (by a little).
Um yes, as a matter of fact, Orlando did sign players. Therefore it would be impossible to lump the Magic and Bulls together. They signed Grant Hill. The basically forced Toronto to do a S&T with T Mac because T Mac had already purchased Payne Stewart's house and was on the verge of signing him. They signed Ewing (no big deal I agree...but still a FA signing).
Nugzfan, You can't compare yourself with Orlando. If you had to name the number one city for FA's, where would that be? Orlando. If you're thinking Tim Duncan, you better think again. Gary Payton? Jason Kidd? Jermaine O'neal? Duncan, Payton, and Kidd won't come to Denver, a team that is rebuilding. They would like to go somewhere with a real chance. Like Orlando, or NJ, or Sonics. You better Jermaine O'neal will stay with the Pacers, make no mistake about it, he's getting the MAX. In what direction are you looking? Trades? You have no trade commodities. Juwan Howard is your best trade commodity, and you won't get much for him since he's just potential cap space. If you had a building block. ANYTHING to build around. Maybe. The only way this can eb fixed? Pick up Yao Ming and Dajuan Wagner this upcoming draft, then you'll be respectable. Because still, that's 2 rookies, and 2 oldies. Besides, Wagner is not coming out. Again, you had a good core. You should've rested McDyess, picked up the best 3 in the draft, then you'd be a playoff team with a real coach. Lafrentz Mcdyess ---------- Abdul Wahad NVE 6th man: Posey Beleive me when I tell you it's not ONE awful season. It's a minimum of 2, and upto 4.
i know i cant compare denver to orlando just as you cant compare denver to chicago. 3 different scenerios. as for trades, with cap room, you dont need much trade commodity to get a player. teams will be looking to dump salary with the lux tax coming up...thats where we step in. we had a good core? lol. no we didnt. no one thought so before the trade, and we still didnt. never close to the playoffs. never .500. overpaid, no cap room, no future. forget it. 'one awful season' is next season. then after that we wont be awful. we will be better than we are now. and at least going up as opposed to down (like we were before). you keep thinking of chicago when you say 2-4 years. no way. a team with two top rooks, dice and a couple decent pick ups (FA or trade) wont be awful. nice try tho.
Can we pause the hostilities while I ask Nugzfan (Nug4 too) a question? Do you think the Nuggets will try to keep McDyess, or will they try to trade him now to get fresh talent for their renewed rebuilding project?
There you go hurting my feelings again. Don't you know by now that I am the sensitive type? Reaf was basically dealt for cap space and a draft pick unless you consider Juwan a keeper so how can you say the Reaf for cap space deals were gargage if a draft pick was included? Also if the nuggets are going to rebuild from scratch don't you think that it would be better to unload McDyess for a high lottery pick? That way the nuggets would clear even more cap space and get a possible stud or at least a very valuable player from the draft to go along with some very good free agents. With the right mix of free agents and draft picks you might end up with a situation similar to that in Orlando. An up an comming team that has a lot of youth and was built through the draft (Mike Miller) and free agency.
NugzFan, I'm just wondering if you're willing to admit that this could turn out to be a very, VERY bad move. You could wind up like Orlando (doubtful, they have the added bonus of no state tax and a lot of players that live in Florida) or you could wind up like Chicago. I would say that you can't do worse than Chicago did, but there rebuilding process was very brutal. In fact, they're still rebuilding. They eventually had to trade whatever talent they had accumulated to get All Star caliber players like they have now, but nonetheless they've been horrid for 3 or 4 years. Maybe trading Van Exel was necessary and maybe LaFrentz had to be involved to do the deal, but other than dumping Wahed's salary it doesn't seem as though a lot of cap flexibility was created. Most of the FA's next offseason are guys that are looking to go to teams that can win now and there's no way Denver will be able to compete for at least 2 years as they are now. I don't think Denver is going to be as bad off as Chicago, but I still wouldn't bank on much next offseason.
I don't think there's any doubt in ANY Nugs fans' mind that this deal could SERIOUSLY backfire. However, the main argument most are saying is that they'd rather risk huge embarrassment in exchange for a championship instead of just being medicore the rest of the decade. To the best of my knowledge, from the people I've talked to, McDyess knew about the trade. He knew the potential benefits. He knew the downside. He signed off on it. McDyess is VERY good friends with Kidd. They want to play together again sometime before their careers are over. McDyess knows this is a possibility for this to happen. He's also very good friends with Duncan. He wants to play with him (and Kidd wants to play with Duncan). Now, am I saying we're going to get those 2? No (but I can dream! ). However, McDyess knows the risks, he's in the deal for the time being. I don't think he'll be traded. He is the centerpiece we're building around. You know, a lot of people knock Denver saying that it's not a place where people want to play. However, it's a gorgeous city, incredible stadium, great fan base (except with basketball, but that would change with a team that wasn't rebuilding....look at the Broncos and Avs). McDyess was traded once and came back in free agency. He knows the strengths of the city, now it's up to him and Kiki to recruit. I still think a LOT of questions will be answered this off-season once we have a coach.
i know we will try. kiki is still calling dice our main guy and wants to build around him. i could see him wanting to trade dice if by next season dice wants out no matter what.
raef was not traded for cap space. he was thrown in to dump nve/taw/aj for cap space you idiot. why trade dice when he can still give you all star numbers. hes still got value and can get it done. i just remembered why i dont like you.
ABSOLUTELY! this has a ton of risk why im ok with it? cuz we were stuck before and we sucked before. we were going nowhere with a top 10 payroll. it sucked. we had no future or direction. we were inconsistent. it wasnt fun to watch. at least now theres excitment and anticipation. we have direction and a chance to make the playoffs in a few years. we didnt have that before.
Realistically I see dumping Wahed's salary as the only positive thing done here. He was the bane of your team and for that I will give props. My arguement here is that having cap space is not a happy go lucky type scenario. You might get a big name FA or you might get absolutely nothing. The thing I liked about the Nugs b4 the trade was the fact that they had McDyess and LaFrentz to take up the 4 and 5 and NVE as a solid PG in the backcourt. After this horrid season y'all would still have a high draft pick that could bring a better 2 or 3 for y'all. I guess that this draft is stronger in PG and big men (at least high in the draft order the main guys are at those positions) so you couldn't get the guy you might need. If I were the Nugz I would try to load up on 1st rounders and hope that someone will want to trade down with you so you can get Williams or Wagner (if he comes out). However, despite NVE's attitude problems he was a very solid PG. He probably shot too much (actually no probably), but he was also good at distributing to his other guys. I think the problem with the Nugz was a matter of not having an impact guy at the 2 or 3 and Wahed's contract. You did solve one problem, but now you'll have to worry about the 1 and 5 along with the 2 and 3. Good luck to you guys in the offseason. You'll be a major player in FA, but its very hit or miss. As for McDyess being traded, what does it matter to us? We are doing fine at the 4 and in fact we need to trade a guy so its less packed at that position. Most likely KT since he has trade value and MoT has the added bonus of being a capable backup at center.
I don't understand why the Nuggets didn't try to deal with Indiana. I'm sure the Pacers would have loved to take Van Exel, LaFrentz, and Wahad for Rose and Best. Instead Indiana got some role players to replace a superstar in Rose. Jalen Rose has seriously sped up Chicago's rebuilding process. Travis Best is a serviceable point guard. Chandler and Curry are now in the starting lineup. The Bulls have won three straight since this trade.... Anyways, don't count on the Rockets making any major moves in the FA market in 2003. If they didn't want Webber, then they're probably happy with the current cast of players. However, Langhi and Coller are taking up roster spots. Next years picks need to be ready to play. Houston fans will not tolerate a fourth consecutive year of missing the playoffs.
true...chicago has had cap room and got nothing. but orlando did. it CAN work. chicago is a terrrible franchise. we can do better (i hope). also remember that we will have an all star already in place. orlando didnt even have that. as for nve; he had to go. there is no justifying him staying. he faked an injury to not play. hes no good on the bench considering his salary. he kinda hurt us there. so he had to go, and for that to happen, raef had to go...so why not start over. dallas took wahad and aj fortunately while giving us soon to expire contracts, something ireally wanted. and please remember cap room can get us stars via free agency AND trades. we can easily trade for disgruntled stars making the max and give up no part of the core.
Good plan. You can start by bringing back Isaiah Rider. Just kidding. Here's some consolation: the Nuggets still draw more fans at home games than the Rockets, who are last in the league (even lower than lame-duck Charlotte). Seriously though, the Nuggets are going to be bad for a very long time. Juwan Howard is a bum, and Tim Hardaway ain't gettin any younger. Your hope lies in the form of a ping-pong ball. If it bounces the Nugz way, ya'll will have a franchise player in Jason Williams, a mix of Francis and Marbury.
Are you serious?!? Man, we're going through our 5th rebuilding plan in 2 years (maybe it just seems like that) and we're drawing more than the Rockets?!? Woah.
