Better offense, yes... but FAR more explosive? I guess you forgot how good Biggio and Bagwell were in the late 90's. Biggio was the ultimate lead-off man, who hit for avg., power, and had speed. He was a 50 SB-50 Doubles machine... he would get on-base like a mad man, and he was consitently in the top 5 MVP balloting those three years. Bagwell was the best 1st baseman in baseball, averaging 40+ HR in the dome. He was a FAR better hitter then, mainly because his AVG. was much higher. Here's a comparison of the rest of the players: Dierker: C. Everett, Alou, S. Berry, Derek Bell, Bill Spiers, Rickey Gutierez. Williams: Ward, Berkman, Blum, Kent, Ensberg, Everett, Vizcaino. Berkman vs. C. Everett - Advantage Berkman, but Everett was a very good switch-hitting CF for us in 98-99. Good enough to win in the playoffs. Kent vs. Alou - Advantage Kent... but that's only because of what he's done in his career. Compare Alou's first year here with Kents, and its not even close. Alou was close to being MVP in 98 before he got hurt. Blum vs. Berry - Advantage Berry... He was a killer 'B', and I remember far more big hits off his bat than from Blums... and my Blum memories are more recent. Spiers vs. Viz - Advantage Spiers... one of my favorite Astros of all time... he was just as clutch, and even more versatile than Blum and Viz. Ensberg vs. Bell - Advantage Bell (this could change with time).. but Bell put up decent numbers those years. Ensberg has tailed off big time these last few weeks (and he's had plenty of oppurtunities to hit... so don't give me that line). A. Everett vs. Gutierez - Even... The ONLY strong advantage that Jimy's teams have is that they play in MMP... but I tend to discount that since good pitching beats good hitting no matter where. (and when Jimy's teams have faltered, its normally been against decent to good pitchers... they've killed the bad ones).
Does nobody remember Dierker bringing in Mike Williams instead of Dotel that cost us the game vs the Braves? Does nobody remeber Dierker playing Julio Lugo at SS instead of Jose Vizciano that cost us the game against the Braves? Dierker had pitchers that could go 8 innings back then and that's why he left them in so long. Jimmy has fragile pitchers not even 6 feet tall that can not sustain pitching complete games like Dierker had. This is the reason protypical pitchers are 6'5, because they're more durable. And if you have the best bullpen in the league with starting pitchers that can't go more than 6 innings you better use them.
huh??? Dierker "handled" the pitching staff better because his staff was far better!!! How can you keep ignoring that? He has the best bullpen in the league...and that bullpen is the #1 reason the Astros are still in the race. better offense??? are you even remotely serious?? the 98 astros had an amazing, balanced offense. the astros of today are a bunch of lumberjacks with very little balance. seriously, DaDa...what are you watching???
It was actually Mike Jackson, not Mike Williams. I think what should be remembered is that the Astros have hit horribly in all their playoff series while Dierker was manager. It is interesting that there seem to be conflicting arguments about those 2 moves of Dierker's in 2001 that keep getting brought up: On one hand, people wanted Dotel to be brought in because he was "the guy" during the year. They did not care that Jackson had "experience" in those types of games. On the other hand they argue that Vizcaino should have been at SS (especially after game one) becuase he has "experience" in those types of games even though Lugo was "the guy" during the season. So the net affect was that Dierker chose experience in one case and gets criticized for not going with "the guy", and he chose "the guy" in the other case and he gets criticized for not going with "experience". It seems one could argue that he wasn't consistent but to criticize him for both moves for opposite reasons seems to be hypocritical. All of this would be moot if the Astros had hit 75% as well in the playoffs as they hit during the season.
Good points, bobrek. Hindsight is always 20/20. Funny thing is that if those two moves were the other way around with the same outcome, they would probably still be criticized for the exact opposite reasons. The reason the Astros are 2-12 (I think that's right) in playoff games is because of the horrid hitting or lack there of. I fail to see how that's Larry's fault.
Max, It is the chicken and the egg. Where the pitchers better because Dierker handled them better and instilled confidence or just simply better. I say he got MORE out oft them and made them better. Ever wonder why Elarton, Hampton, and Kile were not as good after they left Houston? I don't buy into the we had a better offense when Dierker was manager either. I would be interested to see runs scored for his years versus the last two. DD
Funny you mention Elarton, Hampton and Kile. They all left Houston and ended up in Colorado. What pitcher has had success there? Kile got the hell out of their and once again became one of the best pitches in baseball. Hampton has turned his career around this year as well.
JPM, True Colorado is a bad spot to pitch, but all 3 pitchers had their best years in Houston. Kile in St Louis was close to Kile in Houston, but Hampton this year is still not the same...and Elarton...well......... DD
If you're going to give Dierker props for Elarton, where's the kudos for the way Jimy's handled Robertson? The two's best years are basically identical. What about Villone? The guy's been pretty much crap his entire career, comes to Houston and flourishes. Will you give Jimy any credit for that? Dotel never pitched this good under Dierker either. BTW, will you ever concede that you were WRONG about Jimy and his making the playoffs since you said he "NEVER" made the playoffs?
I believe I said he NEVER won a pennant and Major said that is because the Yankees were in his division. Sounds like excuses to me. Dotel did pitch as good under Dierker, remember arguing for him to pitch instead of Mike Jackson in the playoffs? Also, Elarton's ERA was a lot better than Robertson...and I don't think Robertson has been all that good this year. He has a horrid ERA, but the team has scored runs for him. I just don't think Jimy is all that impressive, and I dislike his use of the Bullpen, and too much platooning of players. No problem if people disagree with me, that is fine...but I don't settle for mediocrity in anything I do....you are welcome to do it though if you like. Just trying to get your goat RM
This is what you posted earlier in this thread: Notice the "NEVER goes to the playoffs" you wrote. I'd take actually winning a playoff series, like Jimy's done, over not winning one, like Dierker's done. And you can argue that the fact that they had the Yankees in their division is simply an excuse all you want, but put Dierker and the Astros over there and they're not winning pennants either. Also, Elarton's ERA in 2000 (his 17-7 season)-4.81 Robertson's ERA in 2003-5.00 A whole .19 runs better. Whoopdedoo. Where's the props for Jimy's handling of Villone? You can believe all you want that his handling of the bullpen has been bad, but the way he's managed has us in place for possible playoff berth. Had our star pitcher not been hurt, we'd be getting ready for the playoffs right now because we'd most likely have a 7-8 game lead over the Cubs. Of course, I forgot that Oswalt's groin injury is Jimy's fault.
I concede that never was an exageration. How many trips over Jimy's 12 year managerial career has he led a team to the playoffs? DD
I guess that's as close to an admission that you were wrong as I'll get. I believe twice, winning a series along the way. So Dierker went 4 times in 5 years. How many series did he win? That'd be a big fat zero.
RM95, Ok so 2 for 12 is about an 18% chance of even GOING to the playoffs, while Dierker was 4 for 5 which equates to 80% chance. Jimy never got to a series, neither did Dierker, but I still will take the GOING to the playoffs 80% of the time, over the going only 18% of the time. DD
I'd rather have a manger who knows how to win in the playoffs. I'm sorry that you can accept just getting there. It's OK for some like you to accept mediocrity in their managers, but I'm not one of them. I want to win, not just get there.
Winning in the wild card round is not good enough....and if you only get there about 18% of the time, you will not have very many chances to win in the playoffs. Dierker got us there 80% of the time, and eventually he would win a series too.. But I want the WORLD series, and, follow my logic here RM, you can't win one if you are RARELY even in the playoffs. DD
Tell Flip Saunders that. Bottom line, there are no guarantees in sports. There's no guarantee that Dierker would've eventually won a series. There's no guarantee that Jason Lane's going to become the stud OF you predict. All you have to go on is past performances. Dierker couldn't get it done and he lost the clubhouse in the meantime. Well, it's hard to get to the playoffs every year, and follow my logic here DD, if you're in the same division with the best team in baseball. Call it an excuse all you want, but you put the Dierker led Astros in the AL East in the late 90s and they go to the playoffs by the benefit of the Wild Card only. And that's with a much more talented team than Jimy was managing in Boston.
Harder to win a division for sure, but NOT harder to make the playoffs. Jimy could not get it done in Boston, and he is proving that he can't get it done in Houston either. CASE CLOSED !! DD
