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Libertarian Primer

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Rashmon, Feb 26, 2012.

  1. glynch

    glynch Member

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    From the third part of the libertarian inteview. I always saw libertarianism as being essentially anti-democracy, but normally they deny it. Also at times they act like they believe in freedom of speech.
    *****
    ANDREW: You mean, you are sure that no one will want to go back to democracy?

    CNC: No, I mean they won’t be allowed to discuss that possibility. In a covenant… among proprietor and community tenants for the purpose of protecting their private property, no such thing as a right to free (unlimited) speech exists, not even to unlimited speech on one’s own tenant-property. One may say innumerable things and promote almost any idea under the sun, but naturally no one is permitted to advocate ideas contrary to the very covenant of preserving and protecting private property, such as democracy and communism. There can be no tolerance toward democrats and communists in a libertarian social order. They will have to be physically separated and removed from society.

    or grom thr seconf part:

    ***********
    CNC: That’s true, but you don’t have to convince Joe the Plumber that he is a brute. You can convince him instead that he is a hardworking, productive individual, and that other people are brutes who are making it so Joe has no control over his life.
    ANDREW: I see.

    You see this with the Tea Party types and little guy libertarian types. What burns them up most is not the elite,but the folks on food stamps or who make a bit more because they are in a union or have a retirement plan as a teacher.

    CNC: Still, you’re right. Convincing the masses of the superiority of the natural elite is not the most important part of our communications strategy. The central task of those wanting to turn the tide… is the “delegitimation” of the idea of democracy… [103] It is not enough to focus on specific policies or personalities… Every critic and criticism deserving of support must proceed to explain each and every particular government failing as an underlying flaw in the very idea of government itself (and of democratic government in particular). [94]

    You definitely see the near delight by libertarians and their kissing cousins in never missing a chance to try to deligitmize government by democracy.
     
    #61 glynch, Feb 29, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2012
  2. Rashmon

    Rashmon Member

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    Based on my reading of some of the local posters here like, highcrop, toycen, nms, et al, I think they have come to this "libertarian" political position based on general disillusionment with the status quo and see Ron as the flavor of the moment.

    It seems the philosophical underpinnings of the political position is fairly shallow and they consequently do not understand the ramification of the philosphy they have embraced. Therefore, when confronted with this satirical piece exposing the danger of libertarianism they get defensive.

    When taken to it's logical implementation, I find the libertarian political philosophy much more dangerous than the current status quo and this is my way of bringing this concern to light. They rail about corporatism but don't seem to realize that libertarianism will ultimately lead to corporate rule.

    If these articles bring a deeper political understanding or interest in delving further into the philosophy, great. Take it or leave it. No sweat off my balls.

    Satire, by the way, is defined as:

    1. the use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, or the like, in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly, etc.
    2. a literary composition, in verse or prose, in which human folly and vice are held up to scorn, derision, or ridicule.

    The vice or folly being denounced herein, of course, is libertarianism and by current political default Ron Paul.

    At least jomama immediately recognized the strawman angle of the story but does not wish to acknowledge the relevant criticisms of libertarian philosophy inherent in the piece. It's worth the read if only to further your own convictions by having them challenged.

    Two more articles to go...
     
  3. jo mama

    jo mama Member

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    a super pac supporting paul is not paul.

    and ill ask again - why is this bad, but bill maher giving $1 million to an obama super pac is ok? why are all the lobbyists giving money to obama super pacs ok? why are the koch brothers bad, but soros gets a pass?

    you focus all your ire on one "side" while ignoring when the other "side" engages in the same behavior - you are a partisan hack and a hypocrite. it should be obvious to all.
     
  4. jo mama

    jo mama Member

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    i think ron paul and libertarians have struck a nerve w/ yall - look how much time and energy you put into attacking them. you two are obsessed w/ paul and libertarians.

    someone who would start this thread and read an entire 6 part interview that they admit is satire and expect to have a serious discussion on it clearly has issues.
     
  5. jo mama

    jo mama Member

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    and as i have shown in this very thread, you also frequently criticize libertarians, conservatives, republicans and ron paul for things your own party and president does which makes you a giant partisan hack and hypocrite.

    link?

    this thread is not about libertarianism...its a strawman argument - set up the most ridiculous caricature possible and expect people to defend what they are saying. rashmon admits the "interview" is satire, but he expects to have a serious discussion on it...what a joke!

    im against citizens united - ive never claimed i was for it. but i dont go around criticizing people for things that everyone else is doing too like you are - thats why you are a hypocrite and a partisan hack.

    it has nothing to do w/ libertarianism and everything to do w/ the fact that you are a partisan hack who views everything thru the prism of republican vs. democrat. you think its ok to attack ghw bush's military service b/c he is a republican. you even said as much in that thread when you questioned why i would defend bush's military service since he is a republican. you seemed surprised that i was actually sticking up for him since you said i was a libertarian. that tells me everything i need to know about where you are coming from...its all about the R or D infront of someones name.
     
  6. jo mama

    jo mama Member

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    i cant believe i have to keep explaining this to you, but its ridiculous to expect to have a serious discussion on a satire piece. you acknowledge its a "strawman", yet you think its a legitimate piece worthy of discussion. this is a totally unfair argument - you set up the most extreme caricature possible and want me to defend it? what a joke!

    and how does this article challenge my convictions? its a satire piece that has no bearing on reality.

    rhadamanthus and i have debated plenty of real-world/tangible issues and he has actually challenged my convictions and helped me better define my positions - this thread has not challenged my convictions in anyway...all its done is show me how desperate some of yall are. you cant even discuss real issues...instead you want to debate over a satire piece/strawman argument.
     
  7. glynch

    glynch Member

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    Well I will answer, again. It is bad- whether Obama, Mahrer or the Koch's

    Democracy and not just rule by and for for the wealthy elite is at stake.
     
  8. glynch

    glynch Member

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    Hey, I am glad to see you thinking outside the Ron Paul/libertarian box on this one.


    .


    No, you don't get it. I don't like pro-war Dems or Repubs both. I was attacking Bush not because he is a Republican, but because he started the Iraq, war.

    For the record I do think you are quite partisan for Ron Paul, are not a hack, a hypocrite, a liar and are very sincere but misguided in many of your political views.
     
    #68 glynch, Mar 4, 2012
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2012
  9. glynch

    glynch Member

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    Rashmon, I am lookinf forward to the concluding parts of the interview with the libertarian.

    I agree with your general analyis of Ron Paulites/libertarians as being motivated by great disatisfaction with the status quo but not giving much thought as to what would happen in a libertarian society, since one has never existed.
     
  10. Rashmon

    Rashmon Member

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    Thanks. There seems to be a real lack of intellectual curiosity into the philosophy and a lot of emotion. I dedicate Part V to you...

    Journey into a Libertarian Future: Part V – Dark Realities

    By Andrew Dittmer, who recently finished his PhD in mathematics at Harvard and is currently continuing work on his thesis topic. He also taught mathematics at a local elementary school. Andrew enjoys explaining the recent history of the financial sector to a popular audience.

    Simulposted at The Distributist Review

    This is the fifth installment of a six-part interview. For the previous parts, see Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, and Part 4. Red indicates exact quotes from Hans-Hermann Hoppe’s 2001 book “Democracy: The God That Failed.”

    ANDREW: In the last interview, you told us how GLOs in the Middle Ages were noblemen, publicly recognized as being a cut above the ordinary person. Have the rich people and corporate leaders of today also risen to the top by being natural leaders?

    CODE NAME CAIN: No. Rich men still exist today, but more frequently than not they owe their fortune… directly or indirectly to the state. Hence they are often more dependent on the state’s continued favors than people of far lesser wealth… Their conduct is not marked by special virtue, dignity, or taste but is a reflection of the… proletarian mass culture of present-orientedness, opportunism, and hedonism. [73-74]

    ANDREW: How did this happen?

    CNC: Unfortunately, democracy has succeeded… in the ultimate destruction of the natural elites. The fortunes of great families have dissipated, and their tradition of culture and economic independence, intellectual farsightedness, and moral and spiritual leadership has been forgotten. [73]

    ANDREW: It’s the fault of democracy? The noble families themselves bear no responsibility for their decadence?

    CNC: Maybe the noble families should have tried harder to resist democracy, but yes – Hans-Hermann Hoppe proves in his book that democratic government always leads to welfare state socialism. The United States of today is a case in point.

    ANDREW: Libertarians are in general very critical of modern democracies. Still, many think that a legitimate government could exist, provided that it is very small and only does things that libertarians think are good.

    CNC: Ayn Rand, Robert Nozick, Milton Friedman, and even the sellouts at the Cato Institute have all worked hard to defend the rights of producers. However, they naïvely imagine that democratic government can be tamed: transformed into a reliable machine that will safeguard property and contracts without getting other ideas about its proper role in society.

    ANDREW: Are you sure that they are wrong?

    CNC: Completely sure. As I just told you, the destructive nature of government is a theorem, proven by applying the rules of elementary logic.

    ANDREW: Can you explain the theorem to us?

    CNC: The proof is best explained using the concept of “time preference” from Austrian economics. Draw a downward-sloping time preference curve for a given individual in the beginning of humanity…

    ANDREW: Even though you might find a technical approach more elegant, you will reach a bigger audience if you explain the idea in ordinary language.

    CNC: Some precision will of course be lost, but I can try… The idea is simple, yet profound. Begin by assuming that a government official is rational, and therefore acts in order to use the government apparatus to his personal advantage… [Since] he does not own [the government]… [h]e cannot sell government resources and privately pocket the receipts from such sales, nor can he pass government possessions to his personal heir… [Consequently, a] president… will use up as much of the government resources as quickly as possible, for what he does not consume now, he may never be able to consume. [24]

    ANDREW: Past presidents like George W. Bush and Bill Clinton are millionaires. If your theory was correct, they would have plundered so much of the country’s resources that they would be richer – more like billionaires.

    CNC: Ahh… That’s what I thought when I first read Hans-Hermann Hoppe’s book. But you see, Dr. Hoppe thinks at the level of abstract theory. You have to understand how to apply his categories to the real world.

    Although Dr. Hoppe uses “president” as an example of a government official, there are many government officials, and they are all trying to plunder the government. What is more, there are official government officials, and there are also unofficial government officials, like lobbyists and campaign contributors and the presidents of too-big-to-fail (i.e. government-sponsored) banks. The plunder tally is too small if you don’t count the booty of both official and unofficial government officials.

    ANDREW: Is this just your interpretation, or is it Dr. Hoppe’s, too?

    CNC: Well, he could maybe have been a little clearer. But he definitely understands. For instance, he points out that it is not likely that dullards, even if they make up the majority, will systematically outsmart and enrich themselves at the expense of a minority of bright and energetic individuals… frequently it will actually be the better-off who succeed in being subsidized by the worse-off. [97] In other words, he agrees that welfare states mainly end up subsidizing “unofficial government officials.”

    ANDREW: I see. Anyway, you were explaining why you think other libertarians are chasing a mirage when they strive for a government that is as small as possible…

    CNC: Right. As I was saying, Dr. Hoppe’s theory is strikingly accurate. Even professors from the mainstream like Tom Ferguson and Simon Johnson admit that Dr. Hoppe is right and that U.S. government decisions are, in reality, made by lobbyists and large campaign contributors. There is also broad agreement that any given unofficial government official is not sure when “the party” will be over for the interests he represents, and so he tries to plunder as much as possible now, with no thought for the future.

    Now let’s take those pro-government libertarians I just mentioned. They know that the masses are not intelligent, they know that democracy is just a theater where the unofficial government officials use coercion to steal from productive people – and then they forget it all and mindlessly accept and repeat nonsense such as that democracy is self-rule and government is of, by, and for the people [92]. They foolishly think that they can use the democratic process to redirect the unofficial government officials! Or that they can persuade the unofficial government officials to give up the benefits of lobbying and move toward a free society!!

    ANDREW: So you’re saying that lobbyists run the government, the corporations they represent don’t want a libertarian-style small government – so it won’t happen.

    CNC: Exactly.

    ANDREW: I’d like to prove a theorem, too. Can I try?

    CNC: Sure – but keep in mind that it takes a lot of practice to reason correctly about economic affairs.

    ANDREW: I’ll never learn unless I try… Begin by assuming that CEOs are rational, and therefore act in order to use the corporate apparatus for their personal advantage. Since they don’t own the corporation, their incentive is to use up the corporation’s resources as quickly as possible – what they don’t consume now, they might never be able to consume.

    CNC: Your amateurism is showing. The behavior you describe is impossible, since stockholders only allow a CEO to run a corporation if they are confident that the CEO will act in their best interests.

    ANDREW: I thought there was lots of evidence that CEOs have been extracting much larger payments from their corporations than in the past. Are you sure you aren’t mindlessly accepting the myth that corporate governance is of, by, and for the stockholders?

    CNC: Sophistry.

    ANDREW: But think of how well your theory generalizes from democratic governments to GLOs! For example, bank traders at European banks like UBS deliberately bought lots of risky securities so that they could manipulate their own accounting rules and get paid large bonuses. We could call the traders “unofficial corporate officials” who cooperated with the official corporate officials in consuming the banks’ resources.

    CNC: If this was really happening, then stockholders would have stopped investing in the bank in question. Unless, of course, there was government interference. That’s why it’s so important to concentrate on the flaws of democratic government.

    ANDREW: Hmm… If you and Dr. Hoppe think that the problem with democracy is that government decisions are bought and sold with money, why don’t you try to fix the democracy so that it is less about money and lobbyists?

    CNC: Try to stop productive people from influencing elections using their money? That’s a terrible idea – it means stifling individuals and organizations with large sums of money. It means suppressing their views about politics.

    ANDREW: Is it that you want everyone to be able to express their views about politics, or is it particularly important for some people to do so?

    CNC: The latter, of course. magine that… the right to vote were expanded to seven year olds. [The resulting government’s] policies would most definitely reflect the “legitimate concerns” of children to have “adequate” and “equal” access to “free” french fries, lemonade, and videos. [95] Similarly, if we had democratic decision-making on a global scale, the government would probably find that the so-called Western world had far too much wealth… With these “thought experiments” in mind, there can be no doubt about [95] the negative consequences of “one-person, one-vote.”

    ANDREW: So the problem is that the wrong people will end up voting. But what if only the right people vote? Would you support turning the U.S. into a dictatorship ruled by the Chamber of Commerce? Or if you prefer, you could put Grover Norquist and Americans for Tax Reform in the top spot.

    CNC: The result would certainly be more farsighted, future-oriented decisions than we have today… However, you have forgotten that libertarians do not make compromises when defending liberty. My principles would compel me to oppose a government of the sort you describe, no matter how economically sensible its policies might be.

    And to set the record straight, I am confident that Grover shares my idealism.

    ANDREW: Since you think the role of money in democracy should not change, that must mean that you accept lobbying as a necessary evil linked to the existence of a government.

    CNC: There are certain dark realities that we have to deal with while living in an unfree society.

    ANDREW: Do you lobby governments?

    CNC: Personally, I wish only to work, produce, and enjoy the fruits of [my] labor. However, if politics… is permitted, even [people like me are]… affected. In order to defend themselves against attacks on their liberty and property by those who have fewer moral scruples, even… honest, hardworking people must become become “political animals” and spend more and more time and energy developing their political skills. [275-276]

    ANDREW: You are sometimes forced to engage in lobbying.

    CNC: Yes. For example, the current meme in the investment community is that the combination of climate change and population growth will make it almost impossible to have enough food for the world by the year 2050. Farmland is soaring in price.

    My hedge fund discovered uncultivated land in the African country of ***. The land did not belong to anyone, and so we tried to buy it from the relevant government. Outrageously, certain officials from *** insisted on…

    ANDREW: Bribes?

    CNC: … arrangements before they would agree to sell the land at a fair price.

    ANDREW: Was this farmland unoccupied?

    CNC: No one owned the land before we bought it.

    ANDREW: But was someone living there?

    CNC: There were some local tribesmen who claimed that they had a vague traditional “right” to the land. Decisive action was necessary before they stopped squatting on our land.

    ANDREW: Involving trucks of men carrying machine guns…. Has it ever occurred to you that this success for your hedge fund was achieved at the cost a lot of real coercion of real people?

    CNC: It has occurred to me – an unruly band of people aggressively trespassed on my land. My rights were violated and I was forced to make a substantial financial sacrifice in order to defend myself from coercion.

    ANDREW: It must have been terrible… One thing that I have been wondering about – it sounds like you do not have much respect for many GLOs of today. You believe that few of them are led by productive geniuses – instead, many business leaders are instead disreputable people who lobby governments and owe their fortunes to the State.

    CNC: I criticize immoral behavior whether the perpetrators are government officials or businessmen. If CEOs spend their time lobbying and being political entrepreneurs, that is bad. You need to remember that …competition is not always good. Competition in the production of goods is good, but competition in the production of bads is not. [275] As a result of “open political competition” the entire character structure of society [becomes] distorted, and more and more bad characters [rise] to the top. [275]

    ANDREW: But then why are you trying to help these people dominate the world of the future?

    CNC: You ask an interesting question. It’s true that a lot of current GLOs are actually looters and moochers. But trying to sort out which GLOs are legitimate and which are illegitimate would be complicated and ultimately impossible – and so why not create a society in which at least some of the GLOs in charge will be people who have earned their wealth by engaging in productive activities?

    ANDREW: People like you?

    CNC: Yes, like me.

    In the concluding part of this interview, Code Name Cain tries to delve deep into the cognitive biases that prevent his interviewer from having a mature understanding of libertarian principles
     
  11. Commodore

    Commodore Member

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    you put up some anarchist straw man and accuse us of getting defensive for calling you on it. You find some nut to define libertarianism for you so you can ridicule it and cut off discussion.

    Your way of bringing this to light is to define our views for us and then act offended when we object.

    How would this corporate rule manifest itself?
     
  12. jo mama

    jo mama Member

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    but you realize you only focus your ire on one "side", right?

    am i supposed to be 100% in agreement w/ everything paul/libertarians say? why is it that im expected to support, defend and endorse the libertarian and/or ron paul position 100% of the time and if i dont im being disingenuous, but obama supporters are allowed to disavow the more unsavory elements of his policies and they get a pass.

    lol. no you werent, you liar.:rolleyes: you attacked bush b/c his 4 years did not make him "career military" like carter w/ his 6 and you dismissed his service by saying the only thing he did was get shot down. and then when i defended bush you asked me why i was doing that since he was a republican...it was all about him being a republican.

    i support paul for president, so if that makes me partisan thats fine, but in that case everyone is a partisan. if you are saying i would support paul no matter what on everything and that i buy into the cult of personality like many obama supporters seem to do and bush supporters before that, then no. if paul took up mainstream republican positions or accepted the VP nomination from romney then i would not support him.

    imo, partisans are the ones who continue to support a president who has gone against so many of their core principals.
     
  13. jo mama

    jo mama Member

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    get real dude. you post this ridiculously long 6 part straw-man-interview which you admit is satire/made up...and you lament the "lack of intellectual curiosity"?
     
  14. Rashmon

    Rashmon Member

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    I have been quite upfront with my reasons for posting these articles. I think the ideology is severely lacking.

    Satire is a time tested method of presenting the fallacy of a position. I presented the definition earlier for those unaware of the purpose of satire. Here's another helpful site.

    And to Commodore, I am not offended in any way with the responses in this thread. If you read the articles and disagree with them and they strengthen your libertarian ideals and push you to some deeper understanding, bully for you.

    It does not surprise me that some of you won't read them nor acknowledge the dark side of libertarian thought. For others who have derived some source of insight or enjoyment, good for you, too.
     
  15. Commodore

    Commodore Member

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    You posted the rantings of an anarchist and presented it as representative of libertarian thought. It is not. Bill Maher used to call himself a libertarian, doesn't mean he is.

    Libertarianism is about the promotion of individual rights, with the state acting as protector/guarantor of those rights.

    The CATO Institute would be a more honest reflection of libertarianism.
     
  16. False

    False Member

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    Once again, this guy is an anarcho-capitalist -that falls under the umbrella of Libertarian. He is just as Libertarian as Osama bin Laden, or Ali Khamenei is Muslim.

    The CATO institute is a honest reflection of American Economic Libertarianism, but it's not representative of the dominant strains of Libertarianism in a lot of the rest of the world, like Social Libertarianism.
     
  17. glynch

    glynch Member

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    jomama

    You can get to a higher level of debating. Don't give up.
     
  18. jo mama

    jo mama Member

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    haha - you get caught red-handed lying and this is all you got.:grin:

    looks like you give up.
     
  19. BigBenito

    BigBenito Member

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    Speaking of the CATO institute... Koch brothers have been working hard:

    http://volokh.com/2012/03/03/koch-v-cato-a-view-from-cato/#more-56521

     
  20. thadeus

    thadeus Member

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    So, the Kochs have essentially taken over the Cato Institute at this point.

    Cute.

    Let's hear it for 'free markets.'
     

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