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Liberals vs. Conservatives

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by giddyup, Aug 4, 2004.

  1. rimbaud

    rimbaud Member
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    Indirectly the poet, but more directly it is a reference to a dream I had where I was the PG for the Rockets but the back of my jersey said RIMBAUD. There was performance art and spoken word involved as well but that is another matter. Pilfer whatever you wish.

    giddy, in the end you answered your own question to which you already knew the answer. Me good, you bad.
     
  2. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Member

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    This is a side topic but one I've been wondering about.

    I think you're missing the point here about the extent of the impact science has on the abortion issue. The whole basis for the argument about whether life begins at conception or birth has to do with viability. Prior to modern neo-natal medicine there was no chance a fetus could live beyond the womb. Birth was easily the demarcation point for life because prior to that point there was no way to actually prove that a fetus was really an independent distinct life since it couldn't live outside of its mother. Thanks to modern science that definition has gone out the window because you can prove that a fetus actually is an independent separate life because it is viable outside of the womb. With artificial fertilization you can even concieve a new genetically distinct embryo and even store in definately. You could create an embryo from in the lab freeze it and even after the parents have died implant it into someone elses womb and give birth a brand new baby. Heck you could probably take one of the embryos from the cell lines that GW Bush has OK'ed for experimentation and implant them and get a viable baby from them. Reproductive science is what actually proves the faith argument that that lump of cells is a human being.

    On the other hand though science also causes a huge problem for the argument that a lump of cells is a human being. Cloning means that it will soon be possible to take any cells from your body and create a new human life. So potentially every cell in your body is a new human and anytime you kill those cells, exfoliating, donating blood, popping a pimble and so on you're commiting abortion. Finally if you're going to argue that this is still ridiculous since say they cells on your toe can't develop independently that's comes back to the same argument
     
  3. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Member

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    to continue my last point..

    that comes back to the same argument that a fetus really isn't viable outside of the womb so its not really a distinct life until its born just like the cells on your toes can't be considered a separate life unless they undergo a cloning process.
     
  4. aghast

    aghast Member

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    You are completely misreading my previous post. The above, per the previous definition, is an appeal to blind emotion. I will gladly discuss abortion with you in another thread, but this is absolutely not the point I was attempting to articulate. (And S. Chang makes an apt observation: you are very much using past scientific discovery as the basis for that particular judgment.)

    My point, restated: the evidence that you and I share to formulate our moral opinions on the merits of, as you brought up, abortion and welfare, have not changed in many a year. Again, there hasn’t been any great scientific advance recently to, say: know the exact day in its development when a fetus first feels pain as an independent organism, or the moment in its development when it has its first thought. Similarly, there hasn’t been any recent economic unified theorem breakthrough to verify exactly how much a society should give to its poorest or least able. Thus, I don’t expect to change your mind on these issues, nor do I expect my mind to be changed, because there is no actual evidence on which to base those changes.

    However, the administration in power has used its power to implement many of its theories. It argued for a preemptive (actually preventative) war based upon the assertion that Iraq possessed large stockpiles of weapons, was a threat to the United States. We now have evidence that Iraq did not. Upon this evidence, one can conclude that the administration was wrong. The administration passed rounds of tax cuts, first to ‘give something back’ to Americans for helping make a great economy, then when the economy tanked, to start off stimulus programs to reinvigorate it. When one compares the administration’s job predictions or budget projections versus the actual numbers, one has evidence to conclude that the GWB programs have failed to meet their lofty marks. I could go on: into health care costs, the percentage of Americans insured, the evidence of climate change, pollution levels, fuel costs, etc.

    My point: these issues aren’t mere judgment calls. Morality isn’t necessarily at issue. These are issues in which there is evidence, readily available, which one should use to base one’s calls. One can make the distinction between true conservatism and the GWB brand of Republican conservative, but the GWB type has certainly sullied the name of the conservative movement.

    To be intractable on the abortion issue, fine, go ahead. There are legitimate, ethical, dilemmas as to when life, and more importantly humanity, actually begins. But to be intractable on the initial Iraq war justification, or argue for more tax cuts to improve the economy, when all evidence points to the contrary opinion, is I believe the height of stupidity, or at the very least intellectual rigidity.

    Yeah, I also get the very real sense that TJ is someone’s idea of a lark. He plays the character, it seems to me, as a satire of a conservative, for his own sense of mirth, with no actual concern for the issues involved. However, what I was attempting to write was that reading his drivel day after day would not want to make an impressionable moderate into a conservative. If anything, reading Jorge day after day could turn one into a, gasp, liberal.

    See, it’s easy to count up the number of impassioned posters, both liberal and conservative. If that’s all you were trying to do, why not get out your slide rule, a pencil and paper? Why start a thread about it? I thought you were trying to ask why that was the case.

    I give you my take: that the increase in the number of liberal posters and the decrease in conservatives, on something as innocuous as a basketball BBS, is a direct result of the current administration’s many failings.

    But absolute power corrupts absolutely? On a sports fansite? That’s patently ridiculous. Republican president, Republican Congress, Republican Supreme Court. There’s your power.
     
  5. giddyup

    giddyup Member

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    I did ask why; no one wanted to consider the reasons. I guess they are too horrible to fathom. :D

    I know that threads develop a life of their own-- kind of like kids. As the thread-starter you set them on some kind of path but they end up where their experience and the circumstances take them.

    My views on abortion are based on logic not science. That lump of cells will be born human. S/he doesn't become human upon exposure to light. S/he is human. If anything, science has gone on to support this position with DNA studies et al. I don't think that further scientific study is going to reverse that. It can only confirm it further, I think. I understand why you perceive it a dilemna. Do you understand why I don't?

    Have there been many victories in the War on Poverty?

    You have over-simplified the arguments for the War in Iraq? Yes, the WMD issue was over-stated, but from Clinton's Administration forward, the intel indicated that he had some capacity for WMD; indeed he had used them before-- not nuclear, of course. And I don't think it wise to say that issue is ready to put to bed.
     
  6. giddyup

    giddyup Member

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    So when your parents get to the point when they can't live on their own, do they lose status as a distinct life?

    My father couldn't feed himself or get himself to the toilet in the last couple years of his life, but his mind was razor sharp and we could talk about any manner of things past, present, and future.

    Without our help and professional help, he would have been dead much, much sooner than he managed to live.

    Shove a few toe scrapings into someone's womb and I have no problem with removing it unceremoniously. The mass of cells to which I refer is whole, complete, integrated and is a human being who will arrive in the world if left to survivie.
     
  7. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Member

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    That's a far different thing from being in the womb or as a direct physical part of one's body.
     
  8. giddyup

    giddyup Member

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    Your wording was "isn't viable."

    Why is the attachment through an umbilical chord the difference between life and death? Doesn't that seem rather arbitrary?
     
  9. TraJ

    TraJ Member

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    Thankfully, no one ever uses the word conservative in a derogatory manner.
     
  10. bnb

    bnb Member

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    Actually....Liberal seems to have been selected as the counter to the NeoCon label. We all know how important labels are -- and NeoCon just sounds creepy. So we need an equally 'insulting' label for the other side.

    And thus the word Liberal lost its innocence.
     
  11. thadeus

    thadeus Member

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    Back on topic, a bit:

    This board does have a noticeably greater number of "liberals" who actively post than "conservatives."

    Maybe someone else has noticed this - doesn't this imbalance seem to be echoed on most internet bulletin boards? I've seen it quite frequently: A number of "liberals" who post on a regular basis, with far fewer "conservatives" who participate (and, oddly enough, the small "conservative" contigency on BBSes is usually represented by a handful of very outspoken Bush supporters).

    Assuming I'm not the only one who has noticed this, why would bulletin boards have this characteristically lop-sided population? By the polls, it seems apparent that the U.S. is rather evenly split - so why don't internet bulletin boards reflect that equal distribution?

    Something I've been wondering about.
     
  12. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Member

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    You're (perhaps deliberately) confusing a biological standard of viability with a social standard of viability. If you consider that feeding and caring for someone is no different than a umbilical cord then you have a far greater attachment to tropical fish you raise who have no chance at life without your care than your children who more than likely will lead a life not relying on your care.
     
  13. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    Regarding this particular board, on average, people who play basketball have a higher innate intelligence. In some of us, this leads to a more intelligent political philosophy.
     
  14. giddyup

    giddyup Member

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    Yes, I was deliberate because you were arabitrary. My father was biologically dependent on help with feeding and other matters. If feeding and caring for someone is no different than an umbilical chord then that raises the sacredness of the umbilical chord.
     
  15. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Member

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    Its not arbitrary at all, its the difference between a social vs a biological standard. Anyone can provide care for another human, or animal for that matter, but (so far) only one particular human female can incubate any particular fetus from embryo to birth.

    But as I said since you don't see any difference between feeding and caring for someone vs a umbilical chord then the bond between you and your pets are greater than the bond with your children. Since your kids have a far greater probabilty for life without your care than your pets.
     
  16. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Member

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    Considering some of the boneheaded plays, both on and off court, by many NBA players, including several Rockets, I don't know about that.:(
     
  17. giddyup

    giddyup Member

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    Two points:

    1. I would sell my pets but not my children

    2. Pets could survive on their own-- except for my fish.

    It is but a strained logic that turns a pro-Life argument into a PETA plank.
     

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