I also think that some people here are underrating Kobe. The great thing about Kobe is that he can create his own shot easily. His game is probably closer to Jordan than any other in the NBA right now. Not a great 3-point shooter, but he's got a deadly mid-range jumper that he shoot off the dribble, plus a good fadeaway. He's also a great penetrator and finisher around the hoop. Carter has a better 3-point shot, but his midrange game isn't as good as Kobe's. Vince will either pop the 3, shoot a J off a screen, or take it to the rack. Kobe can play around with you with his handles, and then shoot a fadeaway jumper, and there's not a damn thing a defender can do about it. Kobe's also a better finisher around the hoop (more aggressive than Vince). And of course Carter's D isn't up to par. Allen isn't in the same class as Kobe. Doesn't have the same handles, midrange game, defense, and finishing ability around the hoop. Iverson is awesome, but his lack of height hurts him. The one guy who I think can be just as great as Kobe, or even better, is McGrady. He has the exact same tools, but with an extra inch and longer arms. Kobe and T-Mac I think will be the two best guards in the game for years to come. ------------------
Just my two cents, its late, and I'm not really feeling like writing too much...So, I'll just say that I really can't stand the Lakers, but that objectively I think that Kobe is easily the best player at the g/f position in the league. In terms of talent, physical attributes, only TMac comes close. The guy has it all, and it incredibly young. I really think that 3-4 years from now, that he will have easily established himself as one of the premier players of all time. I can think back right now of all the people who were saying they wouldn't trade Cat straight up for Kobe just a few months ago. I think that in time the question would be similar to asking, "Would you trade Cat for Jordan, straight up?" Only time will tell, but I've felt that Kobe, even when the Lakers were struggling earlier this year, is and was the top at his position. ------------------
How is everyone going to dis Carter, The bottom line is that he carried his team to the playoffs and into the second round and was one shot away from being in the conference finals against the #1 seed. Mcgrady could beat the 2 seed once after being down 2-0. Imagine what Vince could do once he starts learning to play D, remember he has one year less of NBA experience than Mcgrady, so next year should be the year that he starts to play D. Mcgrady, Carter, and Kobe all have huge upside, and it is too early to tell who will be the best, as Kobe's stats are inflated from all the defenses zoning in on Shaq. Kobe's defense is overrated too, since players won't drive past Kobe with Shaq patroling the lane. Remember last year's playoffs where Jwill, Penny, Bonzi, and Jalen all manhandled Kobe... ------------------ "See they pick and pick and pick. Man they picked me to death." -Steve Francis on the Utah Jazz
Da Man, Last year the kings took the Lakers all the way to game 5, and a big part of it was Jwill penetrating over and over again past Kobe and dishing to open guys. ------------------ "See they pick and pick and pick. Man they picked me to death." -Steve Francis on the Utah Jazz
Phil Jackson thinks Kobe is already a better all around player than Jordan http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2001/2001/0527/1205474.html "Kobe's become the floor leader of a basketball team that was kind of looking for that nature of a player, who could not only be a scorer, but also be a playmaker or consistently make big plays at critical times," Jackson said. "So it was very important for Kobe to step into that role that he was envisioned at. I've always held the bar up very high for Kobe, and he's not only reached that bar, but he's jumping over the top of it right now. "And I think it's the best that I've ever seen a player of mine play with an overall court game. I'm asking him to do so much, and he's accomplishing it." ------------------ [This message has been edited by M0J0 (edited May 27, 2001).]
Just because Vince's team won three games against the #1 seed, while McGrady's team won just 1 game against Milwaukee doesn't mean anything. McGrady played exceptionally well in the playoffs. He almost single-handedly kept the Magic close towards the end of each game. Just look at the difference in talent between their teammates. Bo Outlaw vs Antonio Davis Pat Garrity vs Charles Oakley Mike Miller vs JYD Darrell Armstrong vs Alvin Williams Dee Brown vs Chris Childs Jon Amechi vs Keon Clark Michael Doleac vs Mo Peterson Troy Hudson vs Dell Curry Just face it, without Hill playing Vince has a much better supporting cast than T-Mac. If these two teams had faced each other in the playoffs, McGrady most likely would have outplayed Carter but still lost the series. Also, McGrady may have one more year of experience, but remember he didn't play much his first few years since he came out of high school. If McGrady had gone to college for the full four years he would be the #1 pick in this upcoming draft... ------------------ [This message has been edited by SteveFrancis3 (edited May 27, 2001).]
You can't take away anything from Kobe just because he plays with Shaq. Just watch any Lakers game: whenever Shaq is getting a breather and all of the defensive attention switches over to Kobe he still takes over the game. His defense may be overrated, yes, but he is still a top-notch defender with his quickness, leaping ability, and height for a guard...I seriously doubt Jwill, Penny, Jalen, and Bonzi "manhandled Kobe" in last years playoffs. I don't recall what happened in those series' but Jalen and JWill wouldn't have even played Kobe. Kobe guarded Reggie in the Indiana series and J Will has never manhandled anyone. ------------------
Astrorocket: The man has been constantly doubled and tripled throughout these playoffs and he's making great passes to open teammates, thus greatly impacting his assists totals. I've been watching all of the Laker games, and I don't see this. I don't even see him double-teamed when they take Shaq out the game. If Kobe drives the lane into the heart of the defense, it's not a double team. Getting a steal and racing down the open court to score over three or four other players that are backpedaling trying to catch you is not a double team. When Dream (the old Dream) touches the ball and there are immediately two or three defenders on him, that's a double team. When Carter touches the ball and another defender immediately runs over to him, thats a double team. I don't know what Laker games you have been watching, but I rarely see Kobe "double teamed" in that manner. Why? BECAUSE THE DEFENSE IS ALWAYS COLLAPSING ON SHAQ. The reason you don't see the impact of double teams being run at Kobe as much as, say, Vince Carter, or Tracy Mcgrady is because when he gets the ball he doesn't just stand there staring at his defender before driving or shooting a difficult fadeaway late in the shot clock. He MOVES. When he gets the ball, he knows what he wants to do and he goes for it. Whether its a pull up or a drive, he gets to it quickly. Once again, I think you are confused about what a double team is. Kobe is able to burn by the defender because: A: He is quick as hell B: The defender is usually running back at him. Why are they doing this? Because they have overplayed on Shaq, and the Lakers have good ball movement. The ball goes in to Shaq, he's doubled, the ball is kicked out, Kobe is the receipient, he scores, NBC rides his nuts and most ignorant fans believe them because they are stupid and can't think on their own. As far as everything else goes, I think the only other player that an argument can be made for is McGrady, and I believe if he was on LA, he would look just as great as Kobe. I consider Kobe to be a good player, but once again, Shaq does make his life a lot easier. I'll hold off on my "great Kobe" declarations until I see him carry a team. ------------------
Stevie Francis3, in their head to head matchups, although I don't have the stats and if anyone can find them for me that would be great, Tracy and Vince had similar numbers, and Vince has grown a lot because of this year's playoffs. It remains to be seen if Tracy can play with Hill, but right now, I still think Vince is the better player. In the long run, who knows? ------------------ "See they pick and pick and pick. Man they picked me to death." -Steve Francis on the Utah Jazz
No one in there right mind doubles off of Kobe Bryant For O'Neal. They double off of Grant or Fox, or Fisher. But not Bryant. Kobe Bryant is constantly double teamed. It just doesn't do any good for a few reasons : 1)Elevation - Bryant simply elevates over the double team, like I just saw him do. 2) Passing - Bryant has gotten to the point where he doesn't force shots and instead looks to the open man. There have been an enormous amount of times where I see Bryant take the ball, drive into the lane and when the defense collapses on him(isn't that a double team?When two players go to cover the same guy, thats a double team.) he kicks it out to a shooter, or swings it to O'Neal when Robinson comes to challenge him. 3) Transition : The Lakers have killed the Spurs on transition, both offense and defense. Kobe Bryant is often attacking the basket while the Spurs are still reeling, trying to get back on defense. Very hard to double team with that going on. ------------------ Charles Barkely on the Raptors defeating the Knicks in Round 1 :"I think it was the Lord. The Lord was with the Raptors. You know the Knicks like to talk so much about religion, but I think the Lord was a Raptor fan." [This message has been edited by Puedlfor (edited May 27, 2001).]
Guys, Watch the game, every time Kobe's had the ball he's been doubled and sometimes tripled. I just saw him fight through a triple team to lay it up under Robinson. Also he passed off a double team to Fisher for a 3. If you don't think he's getting doubled, watch the freaking game. ------------------ Sell crazy someplace else. We're all stocked up here...
Only today have the Spurs doubled Kobe, and he has been less effective. The rest of the season it was a one on one tournament for him. ------------------ The Protrolls.com message boards! Protrolls.com! Home of Turn, Tweak, and all your demented favorites!
Forget Kobe! The MVP of the Lakers is Derek Fisher! ------------------ The Protrolls.com message boards! Protrolls.com! Home of Turn, Tweak, and all your demented favorites!
I think the bone of contention is that Kobe Bryant is rarely doubled on the perimeter, like other perimeter threats such as Vince Carter, or even Steve Francis. Kobe Bryant can hit the three-pointer, but he is not going to kill you from the arc like a Ray Allen might. His bread-and-butter is that deadly mid-range jumper. But when Bryant gets into that mid-range area, he is always doubled, because to leave him with one-on-one coverage there is madness. Of course, the problem is that Kobe Bryant can usually elevate over the defense. ------------------ Charles Barkely on the Raptors defeating the Knicks in Round 1 :"I think it was the Lord. The Lord was with the Raptors. You know the Knicks like to talk so much about religion, but I think the Lord was a Raptor fan." [This message has been edited by Puedlfor (edited May 27, 2001).]
Any player that goes near the middle of the lane, like Kobe Bryant's midrange game requires, is going to appear to get double teamed due to a slight collapse into the lane by the defense. ------------------
Help defense is not double-teaming. When a man beats his defender, and other people help out, that is not a double-team. Bryant is not the main focus of the defense. That cannot be in dispute. So he may get doubled every once in a while. Big deal. Rudy likes to double 6 ft guards in the post sometimes (why, I'll never know). Until he becomes the main focus of the defense for an entire season, and delivers, he'll never be the best in the league. That's not knocking him for playing with Shaq, that's just what it takes to be the best.
Thank you BGM! I was about to post that but I couldn't get online due to inclement weather (lightning storm). Kobe was literally swarmed on those plays and still made something great out of them. ------------------ The season's over, but the 'Stros have started. Guess I'm still gonna be nursing that keg...
that is why he ended up with 24 points, he had to pass out of double teams, which is why he ended up with 11 assists, part of the reason is that he has Shaq, and if you give it to him deep, it is an automatic assist. ------------------ "See they pick and pick and pick. Man they picked me to death." -Steve Francis on the Utah Jazz
"Jwill, Penny, Bonzi, and Jalen all manhandled Kobe..." I don't know which playoffs you were watching last year. It's hard for Jason Williams to manhandle anyone since he hasn't had a decent playoff game in two years. ------------------
