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Keep Yao and Francis

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Sishir Chang, May 1, 2004.

  1. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Member

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    I'm going to make perhaps the most controversial proposal on this BBS.

    The Rockets should keep both Yao and Francis next year.

    If we look at the season as a whole both Yao and Francis had periods where they played phenomenally. In mid season Yao was showing the skill and passion that everyone expected of him which was paying off in outstanding performances against some of the best teams in the NBA. In the playoffs Francis came to play and showed us both his innate talent and more importantly heart. What has bedeviled the Rox is that far too infrequently have both Yao and Francis been playing at what we know they are capable of. Yet on those rare occasions when they do, like the 3rd Minnesota game, we see that they function well together, complement each others game and that the Rox can be a powerhouse that can beat any team in the league.

    IMO this all comes down to JVG's ability to motivate his two star players to consistently bring their A game. Given another year for JVG to get a better feel for what makes his players tick and for his players to not just say they believe in JVG's game but to actually have it ingrained in them the Rox could get much more consistent and play better.

    While there is some value to the trade high idea that is a speculative pessimistic gamble that supposes that Yao, Francis and JVG can never work well together. That is ignoring that there have been stretches where they have worked well together and given time could do that more often. OTOH trading away either Yao or Francis means bringing in one or more core players who there is no guarentee will work any better with the remaining core player or with JVG's system. Also forgotten is that while JVG had surprising success with two of his former Knick players most of those out there are too old to be considered to be future franchise players. So talk of bringing in T-Mac, Nash, or Van Excel is nice speculation but we have no idea how well those players work under JVG's system.

    Yao and Francis have played with each other for two years and for one year under JVG. We've seen that they are capable of meshing together. So lets not be hasty and take a risk on scrapping what we know is at least possible for something that we have no real idea about.
     
  2. GATER

    GATER Member

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    Decent logic, decent sentiments but you must have been watching a Rockets' team in a parallel universe because I didn't see Francis and Yao "mesh" together at all.

    I saw a 5th season PG who has had a green light for 4 seasons struggle to become a ball distributor in an inside-out offense. A PG whose best asset is taking the defender off of the dribble as opposed to making accurate a good low post entry pass. I saw a PG in a ball control offense who can't run a fastbreak to obtain easy transition baskets to compliment a low post oriented offense.

    If by "mesh" you mean that both played well in the same game...it happened on a few rare occassions. If you mean "mesh" as the defense must place equal pressure to stop both, it just wasn't there on the games I watched...about 75 of them.

    If the Rockets don't trade Steve Francis, we'll be having this same conversation after next years' 1st round exit. Trading him doesn't come with a guarantee, but the Rockets need shooters not scorers. To quote Bill Walton..."except for Yao, the Rockets are a bunch of gunners".
     
  3. Luckyazn

    Luckyazn Member

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    [​IMG]


    CAN WE SEPERATE THE TWO???:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
     
  4. Uprising

    Uprising Member

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    What was the point of the rolling eyes?

    Anyways, back to the thread starter. Some good reading. I agree.
     
  5. dookiester

    dookiester Member

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    you know you're in trouble when you start quoting bill walton as evidence that francis and yao dont mix.:)
     
  6. DavidS

    DavidS Member

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    Walton was the consummate team player and leader. He also won a championship. I'd say that's enough credibility, regardless of what you think of him as a commentator.
     
  7. madmonkey37

    madmonkey37 Member

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    Yaos tie really does clash with the rest of his suit doesnt it.

    SF is our best trade commodity right now and without a first rounder and a whole lot of cap room we dont have much room to maneuver. I dont see Francis as our pg of the future rightnow, but i would be giving him another year to see if he works on his jumper and takes care of the ball. The only thing wrong with that is our Trade Exception would expire if we used it on a trade involving him.
     
  8. sydmill

    sydmill Member

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    i agree with the original post. look the debate about Stevie and Yao fitting together has been discussed ad nauseum so I'm not going there. what i will address is the fact that trading steve will most likely result in us taking back lesser players. be honest, how far will we go with yao and a lesser team around him? even if they "fit" better, what happens for the 20 mins a game that yao is on the bench or ineffective? unless you're thinking we can pull a legit scorer out of our a$$es, where do we get our offense from? yao is good, potentially great, but these conditioning problems are really concerning. if at 23 he cant hang, what happens at 28, or 29, or 32? reading jvg's interview, he is apparently pretty concerned with this as well. to some up, unless we are going to get a guy that can carry the team on his own steve should be off the table in any trade talks.
     
  9. aelliott

    aelliott Member

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    i agree with the original post. look the debate about Stevie and Yao fitting together has been discussed ad nauseum so I'm not going there. what i will address is the fact that trading steve will most likely result in us taking back lesser players. be honest, how far will we go with yao and a lesser team around him? even if they "fit" better, what happens for the 20 mins a game that yao is on the bench or ineffective? unless you're thinking we can pull a legit scorer out of our a$$es, where do we get our offense from? yao is good, potentially great, but these conditioning problems are really concerning. if at 23 he cant hang, what happens at 28, or 29, or 32? reading jvg's interview, he is apparently pretty concerned with this as well. to some up, unless we are going to get a guy that can carry the team on his own steve should be off the table in any trade talks.


    You seem to think that Francis gave us some huge advantage last year...he didn't. Our opposition's point guards outscored our PGs, had more assists, shot a higher FG% and turned the ball less. We did out rebound the other team's PGs, but only by 1.5 rebounds/game. Statistically, we were outplayed at the PG spot this season. So, if our max contract PG doesn't give us an advantage night in and night out, then why should he be untouchable?
     
  10. DollarBill

    DollarBill Member

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    Yeah. y'all have very vaild points. it's just that i reallly really hate to see Steve go 'cause he and Yao respect each other so much.
     
  11. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Member

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    While its undoubtable that Francis had an off year but if you look at his playoff performance you can see he still has his skills and even from his playoff assist numbers even added some nice passing.

    Francis has had a year to play under JVG and JVG has had a year to coach Francis. It is logical to presume that next year they will be a lot more comfortable with each other and correspondingly you'll see Francis' scoring averages rise.

    I also concur with sydmill's post that Francis can take some pressure off of Yao in offensive sets plus his ability to play above the rim and break down defenders provides some needed energy and diversity to what would likely be an overly predictable drop into the post to shoot or kick out offense if JVG had just Yao without Francis.
     
  12. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Member

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    Agreed that this was far too infrequent but again if you look at the Minnesota games you get a good idea that they can complement each other's game and when they do the Rox are nearly unstoppable.

    IMO its less a matter of Yao and Francis but a matter of JVG figuring out how to get the most out of them and conversely them, particularly Francis, getting further immersed into JVG's system.
     
  13. TheFreak

    TheFreak Member

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    Francis outscored:

    Not surprising, as I would bet most teams' perimeter scoring went up against Houston - the team really worked to keep guys out of the paint and force the perimeter to beat them.

    Out-assisted:

    Your assists will be lower when your offense is 'inside-out'. Not to mention he was never a big assist guy. Passing is not what made him a max-player.

    'Only' 1.5 rebounds more? That sounds significant to me, when you're talking about perimeter players. How many more assists are we talking about? More than 1.5, I would assume, or else you surely would have said that wasn't a big deal either.

    Turnovers - I have no answer for that. Turnovers aren't a huge deal for me, really (neither are assists).
     
  14. Sane

    Sane Member

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    If Steve stays, he will need to spend the whole summer working on his midrange J and his catch-n-shoot game.

    Aside from that, he cannot start in the backcourt with Mobley anymore. We need to play him with someone who is a SG capable of safely playing the PG position. Francis can NOT be the PG for 40 minutes a game, but he can PLAY 40 minutes a game, alternating between the 2 Guard spots.


    Those 2 conditions MUST exist for Yao and Francis to stay on the same team and have better success.
     
  15. Sane

    Sane Member

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    You are willing to believe anything to make it seem like Francis did a good job last season, aren't you?

    We have been inventing excuses for his whole career. He did not play up to the label of "top 2 player on the team" last season, and that was clear all season long.

    As for the playoffs, if I want someone to sleep during the season then turn it off at the end, I'll sign Robert Horry and save myself 10M.
     
  16. DavidS

    DavidS Member

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    The gist of your post is that the Rockets offense contributed to Francis inept shooting and mediocre assist numbers. Then, you say that turnover and assists aren't that big a deal for you. Really?

    Ok, let me put it to you another way. Points and assist numbers at face value shouldn't be the focus. That train of thought I agree with. But, you are overlooking something...Points, assist, shooting percentage and turnovers are STATS. That's true. They are used to paint a picture of how a player averages over a series of games. But they shouldn't be used alone. That being said...

    Try to imaging how high turnovers and mediocre assist play out during a game. This is not a "individual statistical" game. It's a "total performance" game. Meaning: How does one perform on the court, adjust to difference situations, and learn to adapt? The total game! Ignoring how turnover and assist affect the game completely undermines the idea of the "total performance" of that particular player.

    Francis problems has never been achieving a particular individual stat (one game here, or one game there). Francis problem is that he has a propensity to turn the ball over regardless of the "system." And because of that he will never achieve a high assist number no matter what type of offense is run. It's ingrained in his brain. Can he learn? I doubt it. He'll be starting his seventh season next year.

    So, turnovers and assist are huge factors that impact the game (a tendency to put yourself in a bad position to shoot and a tendency to ignore opportunities to make passes to open teammates). And most of the time this "tendency" to turn the ball over completely overshadows any scoring or rebounding that Francis may do on the side.
     
    #16 DavidS, May 2, 2004
    Last edited: May 2, 2004

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