We're not the Devil Rays. It doesn't make any sense not to bring those guys back because, if nothing else, they put butts in the seats. That's important. No one's going to go out and tank a season to get the #1 pick in the baseball draft either. Before the season, most experts had the Astros third in the division. While most expected their offense to struggle, no one predicted it would be that bad. Imagine where we'd be if it wasn't for Biggio and Clemens. Regardless of whether or not we were going to succeed this year, no team in their right mind would've gotten rid of a player like Biggio (in this situation) or not resigned a willing Clemens. Had we set a date with Beltran, the same people complaining that we went after him would've complained that we're stuck with Finley or Drew who aren't exactly tearing it up. Soriano's going to be a free agent next year, so I don't think that they wanted to go that route again. We probably should've signed Burnitz, but he wasn't going to be the difference maker in this season. Alou was set on going to play with his dad. They did have a contingency, it just hasn't worked out. No one expected the offense to be this bad, especially on the road. The beautiful thing about sports is that there's always next year. We're going to have some massive payroll flexibility coming up and that's due to this past offseason. Why don't we be just a tad bit patient and wait to see what happens in the next few seasons? I doubt if Berkman had said this in January anything different would've been done. They picked up Biggio's option before the Beltran thing played out and you just don't say no to bringing back a player who fills the stands everytime he pitches. Bottom line, our future is not ruined because of the path we chose this year. Biggio playing ahead of Burke isn't going to ruin the future and neither is Rocket being an Astro.
He's 2nd in the majors this year in walks. As Hammer said, I don't think it was or will be an aberration for him. I also don't think he's the base clogger you made him out to be-- he stole 19 bases a couple years ago. He's an exceptional athlete for a guy of his size. I don't think Dunn is Barry Bonds, or would be as impactive as say Beltran was, but when your 39 year old 2nd baseman is arguably your best offensive player this year (with Ensberg), adding a guy who's a local boy, is one behind the leader in walks, is a monster power hitter, is is under 25 certainly couldn't hurt. His age makes me lean towards a guy like him vs. Giles because I think the production is about the same at this point. Giles power production has taken a sharp hit, though a lot of it may be San Diego induced. It's a shame he was tucked in Pittsburgh for the prime of his career- he put together some outstanding seasons for a bad team.
Don't resign Clemens so the kids can pay? I'm sorry, but the team I've watched this year doesn't even have enough arms to throw out there. They had to pull Zeke and Wandy up in the majors well before they really wanted them up here, and yet you want to put another strain on the staff by not signing Clemens. And sorry, but Berkman doesn not share your theory. You wanted to tank the season from the beginning and play the youngsters? Rediculous .. Berkman said he wants to give the current team until at least the All Star break and if things have not improved, THEN let the young guys play. Half a season is still quite a lot of experience for these guys. You don't have to tank an entire season to get them that.
Brian Giles always struck me as a guy who was unusually ripped. He might have been a juicer whos production is now slipping because of the new testing policy.
Look it doesn't leave a good taste in my mouth either but IMO if the Astros would have conceded at the beginning that their plan failed and made a stronger commitment to playing the youth then this season would be worth something. Burke and Scott were sent back down too early and Burkes trade value has taken a hit. Right now it seems like this team doesn't have an identity.
So, your solution would be to get rid of Clemens? That doesn't make a lot of sense. As a fan of the team, whatever brings us money is good because it will allow more payroll flexibility at a later date. I'm not sure we'd have gone after Glaus even if we had decided not to go after Beltran. Third base wasn't our biggest area of need after last season and it's not right now either. As far as the rest, our farm system isn't exactly stocked. While it'd be nice to go after Soriano without thinking about the future, that's not what keeps franchises who have to work within a budget competitive. Could you imagine the uproar had we made that trade, not won the World Series, and Soriano signed somewhere else next offseason? Not to mention, we have no idea how true those Soriano rumors were. Regardless, it doesn't make any sense to ever mortgage everything in baseball. Everyone knew we'd struggle offensively. No one thought we'd struggle this badly. Show me where you predicted nine shutouts through 50 games. Or, you could relish being able to go downtown to see an Astros icon continue to produce at such an old age, winding down a hall of fame career. Or, you could appreciate seeing one of the best pitchers of all-time pitch every five days. If the season had to be this bad, I'm happy enough that I can tune in and see the likes of Biggio and Clemens among the likes of Taveras, Self, Lane, Wandy and Backe. Not to mention guys like Ensberg, Berkman, Oswalt, Andy and Lidge.
I could care less about watching a Biggio or Clemens put up hall of fame numbers on a crappy team. The team needs to go one of two ways - either rebuild around the young guys, or reload with veteran hitters. The former makes you competitive in the future, the latter helps you compete now. Doing neither gets you nowhere, now or in the future, and is basically throwing away the season. The one thing that's become obvious is that pitching + defense, without hitting, does NOT lead to success.
But you have no idea whether that's true or not. Are you going on record saying the Astros won't do anything in the future?
Horrible article by Ortiz. Much too premature. I look forward to reading him eating his words in 4 months.
I'm not saying that the Astros won't do anything in the future. Not sure whether you mean "won't win games" or "won't make moves", but either way, I'm not attempting to predict the future. I'm saying that they have the opportunity to make a move in either direction, and the failure to do either is a wasted opportunity. Guys like Biggio and Clemens have present value, and I'd love to keep them if we can make the moves to compete while they're here and productive. But if we're not going to make the moves to be competitive in the short term, well those guys (esp Clemens) can bring valuable prospects for the future.
That's not what it sounds like here: My point is, there's no proof that the way they've constructed the team this season means that they will be going nowhere in the future. I'm referring to fielding a competitive team next season and beyond. I'm still not sure how anyone can determine that. Basically, the only young guy affected by this season is Chris Burke. I'm not ready to declare that the direction we went in this season, in excluding Chris Burke from meaningful playing time, equals nowhere to go in the future. I guess we'll have to see how the rest of the season plays out. I think Biggio will be back next season and I've said for a couple of weeks that it wouldn't surprise me if Clemens is too. If we can find a team that's willing to part with valuable prospects and Clemens is willing to be traded to that team, I can see Drayton and Pupura going that way. That team's not the Yankees, though.
Excellent point. I wouldn't want the Astros investing heavily in one of these guys that may have Giambied out. ie. Giles, Helton. Dunn would be a good pickup. You people that compare him to Kingman are clueless. I just love people on message boards that make such outrageous statements to bolster their arguments.
Wait...roll your eyes all you want...but play out their numbers, and it's fairly comparable: Dave Kingman Career: 6677 AB's .236 AVG .302 OBP .478 SLG 442 HR 1210 RBI 1816 SO (27% of his AB's) Adam Dunn Career: 1728 AB's .249 AVG .382 OBP .512 SLG 118 HR 273 RBI 348 SO (20% of his AB's) Those numbers aren't so far off as to say they're incomparable. Particularly when adjusted for era. I think Dunn is better than Kingman...but I can understand why someone would draw those comparisons.
I'm much more concerned with the state of their scouting. Specifically, I wonder why they can find and develop pitchers but fail to find position players who can hit. This is a situation that goes all the way back to their days in the Astrodome. I have lost count of how many offensively challenged teams the Astros have trotted out for us to gag over. If you compare the Astros with the Rangers (I live in Dallas), you see a team with very good pitching (Astros) but pathetic offensive players while the Rangers have really good/great offensive players and so-so pitching. In fact, if you were to combine the Astros' pitching with the Rangers' position players you'd have a serious contender for the World Series. What's really interesting is that BOTH teams have had these problems for YEARS and don't look to be correcting them anytime soon.
Thanks... after all my time posting here, I'm relegated to those "people on message boards that make such outrageous statments...". You know what's outrageous?? Nearly striking out 200 times in one season.
The Astros benefitted from being one of the founders (along with the A's) of the approach of drafting smaller-made (6'0 and under) pitchers out of lesser known places late in the draft... the year BEFORE they would have been higher picks. Also, their Venezuelan Academy breeds more pitchers nowadays, as the great hitters down there (Abreu, Hidalgo) are far and few between. The Rangers scouting is nothing special... they drafted a for-sure guy in Mark Texiera, a solid prospect in Hank Blalock, and they got Soriano for A-Rod, whom they signed as a FA. They've also benefited from picking high in the draft the last few years, and having to keep up w/ their fellow AL teams in the seemingly more offense-conscious AL. In the end, I'd rather be able to develop good pitchers rather than just good hitters... and there hasn't been a final verdict on Chris Burke, Hunter Pence, or Mitch Einertson yet to make the definitive statment that they can't grow home-grown offensive players. Plus, what offense have you "gagged" over before this year? They were pretty damn good in 1998 and 1999 in the Dome of all places, and they were a spot-on replica of the usual Texas Rangers teams in 2000.
I clarified my statement and my intent, and you continue to argue with a position that I've professed not to take. Nice going, you win. I'm not making a categorical statement that the Astros will never win in the future, or even next year. They have several assets, and baseball's a quirky game. This is not a team bereft of talent. My point was that if the team chooses (a) not deal for additional bats in the short term [which everyone, including you, agrees we need] and (b) retain our older players [who cannot be counted in the long term plans] instead of playing them, then in that situation I believe they would be making a mistake. I'm not saying they are making those two choices, just commenting on why they should not do so.
Awesome posting Hammer755. Brian Giles IS OLD. While I don't think Dunn is the answer, Helton surely isn't. I think it's about time that somebody in Houston holds the team accountable. The Houston Chronicle has gained some respect from me. This team sucks and changes need to be made. If the press and the fans put pressure on Drayton and the team, changes will be made. Houston is so damn laid back. It is so obvious ever since I moved away from Houston. No wonder Houston teams get no respect.
