John 8 Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her." Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin." I want you to pay attention in particular verses 4-5 and then verse 7. I have heard some of the worst stories in the world when it comes bad things happening. I have had many things happen to myself that I don't understand. I fell into a sin of judging of God and why he allows these things to happen. God's response is easy. Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Jesus died for us. We are all born in a sinful state and all are worthy of proper judgement. But who should be our judge? I chose the one that didn't come to condemn me but to set me free and pay my sin debt. my faith is being sure of what I hope for and certain of what I do not see It is written, "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
An idiot strives to die for his cause, a humble servant simply lives his life. And in this day and age, it is very hard to be martyred as a Christian unless you are looking for ways to do so. Many of the martyrs in the Bible originated from the persecution of the Romans and of the Jews, and stuff like that simply does not happen anymore. It would be much easier to picture a homosexual having to die just for being who he/she is. that said, given the opportunity to martyr myself for mainstream, Christian God, I wouldn't. simple as that.
Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. Our faith if you have been given that gift, is being perfected or is becoming complete through the daily trials of our life. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
The "mainstream" Christian God, as if He is just one in a long list , never was meant to be unifying or anything mainstream but society as a whole has grasped just enough about Christianity to make it swallowable without any of the dying to self the bible seems to talk about so frequently. Maybe here in america you don't see any martyrs today. But on average 1000 people die every day around the world serving Christ by serving others. No one asked you to throw yourself in the middle of a gunfight just to die. But in your daily life if a situation were to occur that would question you: either live and deny Christ, or die and profess Him to the very end. Give me an eternity with Him.
That is a great moral story and one of my favorites but that story is about tolerance and judgement and not why there is suffering.
I submit to you that you can know Him better. But it involves bending your will to His will for your life. Now are people always willing to do that? Of course not.
umm ok. conversely, 55.876% of all stats are made up. one thing I do know is that I am not dying for reward/punishment. I'm not accounting for any other factors but I'm saying that straight up. If there's one thing that absolutely angers me about certain religions, it's that they paint things in a way that give you the lowest common denominator in terms of moral reasoning. The pre-conventional level of moral reasoning is especially common in children, although adults can also exhibit this level of reasoning. Reasoners in the pre-conventional level judge the morality of an action by its direct consequences. The pre-conventional level consists of the first and second stages of moral development, and is purely concerned with the self in an egocentric manner.
This is no story, it is a lesson. He knew those mens sin yet he did not stone them. The world is fallen and under a curse of Sin. That is why there is suffering. My personal feeling is that when he bent down and wrote in the sand, he was writing down these mens sins. Mark 8:31-33 He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. "Get behind me, Satan!" he said. "You do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns." Even God in the flesh had to suffer, what make us mere mortals believe that we should be free of suffering. And I also submit, that we have no idea the suffering he went through, yet we believe we suffer so much, Why God? For those that believe in Christ as Lord of their lives, this is the closest we will get to hell. For those that reject Him as Lord, this is the closest they will get to heaven.
My full reward is Christ Himself, not some ego centered view that if I do anything but keep the faith I gain some sort of reward. And by the way, any reward I gain here I will lay down at the feet of my Savior for all He has done for me. 1 Corinthians 1:27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. Chose your men to follow. I will follow the Son of Man.
I have no easy answer for suffering. I've read C.S. Lewis' "The Problem with Pain" and that is a good book. He's much smarter than I am. My feelings towards God are not motivated for reward or against punishment. They're out of gratitude. With or without the concept of an after-life and/or heaven, I want more God. Some of you know the story because I've posted it here...I'm here on borrowed time...time that wasn't afforded me by doctors. When my "better angels" are winning, I'm living in response to that and to the cross. I'm irritated by "in or out" theology, usually...I'm irritated by the Church resembling a country club....I'm irritated with the Church being construed as a place instead of as a people....I'm irritated when the Church points a finger at culture to bemoan its evils and sets itself up aside from culture so that it never has to engage "the heathens"...I'm motivated by the idea that somehow I can be part of helping churches "get" who Jesus is and find themselves living in response to that.
I'm describing Heaven and Hell, not material rewards. Are you so sure that you'd love your God so much you'd be willing to go to Hell for eternity? just sayin, as it seems to me that heaven/hell is a perfect descriptor of stage 1. Course, moral reasoning is not correlated with moral action and I'm not saying it's necessarily bad that people are doing good because they fear bad things happening to them, but it just angers me when people base their entire philosophy and their entire point of view on the basis of reward/punishment. it really limits you as a person. I'm as weak as the next human being, but at the very least, I think we all need to take a glimpse beyond "this=heaven/this=hell" that defines much of modern religion. Sure, there are religious people who have, but to me, that's a very precious few.
Hell is being separated from God's grace for an eternity. My reasoning isn't based off reward/punishment but pure gratitude. Call it a sacrifice of thanksgiving. As it says in Matthew 6:33 Seek first His kingdom and His righteousness I agree modern religiosity has became shameful at best when they push a sort of misguided decisionalism on anyone by asking questions like, "Do you want to go to heaven?" The question is more like, if you were to go to heaven would you want God to be there? To know the Gospel "Good news" you must know the "Bad News". More than any other figure in the bible, Jesus spoke more often about hell than anyone else. He understands it better than anyone here on this board, including me. I think that is why he spent His life seeking and saving His sheep. He knows what awaits when God removes His grace from the world(being us the people in it).
This is true...what's interesting is that there are few times where he talks about someone specifically being there....the parable of the rich man passing up the poor man who lives outside the gates of his mansion without ever stopping to help is the only one I can think of.
No...sin is nothing but separation from God. It's evidenced by how we act...but the action isn't the sin. Sin is more of a state of being. Our separation from God causes suffering. But I can't square this with earthquakes and hurricanes, etc. and suffering that flows from that. I don't have good explanations for that which satisfy me, though I've read lots of them. These are usually the moments where I find myself angry with God...when there's suffering for other people that I can't write off to being a product of the choices of other human beings. What's interesting is that you can argue that the Bible..particularly the New Testament...presents the notion that those closest to God are likely to suffer. Jesus talks about following him as "taking up your cross." He says that he didn't have a place to rest his head...and that his followers should expect persecution. Of course, those things flow pretty naturally from challenging corrupt human systems and organizations. But most of the disciples were ultimately martyred...as was a great number of the early church.
Being personally CONVINCED does not equal the truth. People are fallible creatures, and just because you believe something or are CONVINCED of something does not make it factual. DD
I believe the text you are referring to is in Luke 16. This is not a parable but actually happened. Unlike all of Jesus' other parables he named proper names (Lazarus) including, a certain rich man, referring to a specific person. “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’ “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”
