That would be contradiction, not hypocrisy. Look it up. Anyway, I've seen the little video clips that everyone else here has seen and they don't show much except what a stiff this Ming guy is. What I have seen a ton of is college basketball on ESPN, where Butler, Dunleavy, Jason Williams, Wilcox and others proved to me that they are studs.
--------------------------------------------------- if Ming admits that Wang is the better defender, then Ming must NOT defend at all. Wang is about as slow as Ostertag. He has no jumping ability or rebounding presence. ------------------------------------------------------ I love Yao much, but his defense play is also what concerned/worried me most. Hopefully Rockest has good defense coach to teach him to develop. I don't know when he said Wang is a better defender, but I am sure in sense of reboudning and Shot Blocking, Yao has become better than Wang from late 2000.
Actually, Ostertag is a pretty decent defensive player. He just can't do anything else. A la Kelvin Cato.
The contradiction in the post made your beleif hypocritical, but whatever - even you recognized something was off.
<i>This was mentioned further up the thread, but the whole thing about Ming being, worst case scenario, another Rik Smits is a total freak'in joke. How can so many people who have never seen this guy play know so much about his game? Ridiculous. Worst case scenario Ming is another Bradley. Maybe I'm revealing my age a bit here, but Bradley hype was huge ten years ago. What has he done? </i> It's not the opinion of the people on this board that we're talking about. It's the opinion of NBA coaches/GMs and scouts. Show me a link where an NBA coach/scout/GM says that Ming can't play and will be Shawn Bradley. Those kind of quotes are only coming from people posting on BBS and Mark Cuban. Ming weighs about 50lbs more than Bradley does now. He's around 70lbs heavier than Bradley at the time he was drafted. Ming shoots the ball and passes much better than Bradley. These things are not in question. Go read what the Jerry Wests and Larry Browns of the world have to say. Their opinion carries more weight than those of people posting on an internet bbs. <i>i totally agree with you man. ming is a bust waiting to happen. when was the last time we saw a guy this tall dominate in the NBA or guy this tall even be good in the NBA</i> So, should Orlando not have drafted Shaq because a 300lb 7 footer had never dominated the NBA? Prior to Shaq, 300 lb guys were oafs like Mark Eaton and James Donaldson. Maybe, back in '79 LA should have passed on a 6'9" point guard? After all there had never been one of those, so obviously that was a bad decision. Should Chicago have not drafted Elton Brand because Duke big men had a history of under achieving in the NBA? Maybe Minnesota shouldn't have drafted Garnett straight out of HS, since no player had made that leap in almost 20 years. Why in the world would LA have drafted Kobe Bryant out of HS? No, guard had ever made the jump from HS to the NBA, so that was a foolish move, right? Houston drafting a foreign player #1 in '84 was crazy, right? No foreign player had been successful prior to Olajuwon. <i>no one has seen this guy play against good competition. he hasnt even played against good college players, unless u think Chris Christoffersen is good. </i> Don't you think that the Dreamteam and other 2000 Olympic teams were good competition? Yao has been playing internationally, so he's gone up against plenty of good competion. For a guy that hasn't even played against good college players, it's pretty amazing to see the picture of him blocking Vince Carter's shot on the CNNSI web site. Are you going to be making the same argument if Lebron James or Kendric Perkins gets drafted next year? Who did we see Garnett play against before he was drafted?
Do you remember what his stats were against those teams. I thought I read he stunk against the US (except for jump shots). Something about not being able to handle the more physical play of the NBA.
first of all u cant include what you said about shaq, magic, and brand because they dominated in college which is better level of competition than CBA so the teams that drafted those players knew what they were getting. for example i havent heard too many people questioning how good J Will will be do you? KG and Kobe were gambles but they also werent takin with the first pick in the draft. like i said before, im guessin CD and Rudy have seen something i havent because what i saw from the highlights of Mings workout he wasnt that impressive. i guess i trust them to pick Ming if they think hes good enough, but unless i see him play some more before the draft i would still rather have a proven player. i dunno maybe its because i didnt watch too much of the summer olympics especially basketball but i didnt hear how Ming was dominating the Dream Team at the olympics. if he blocked one shot big deal. also how often does he play against the dream team? maybe once or twice in his life. atleast in college players get to play against solid competition over a 20-30 game season. if u dont wanna listen too peoples opinios why do u even post on this board? why dont you jus wait till news becomes official. if i wanna state my opinion i will. i dont care what jerry west, larry brown, or you say. Mings is in a totally different situation then all these players. they can workout with teams whenever they want and the teams can have a better idea of how good they will be. they dont have some government telling them what they can and cant do.
your mean billy elliot. oeilpere, sorry for my incoherence, I was joking about you guys' sources 'resigning', lol. That's probably bad form on my behalf w/ an insider... but I wonder since you guys were told different things (unless sane's conspiracy is true) if the rockets are planting seeds of misinformation to discern leaks.
<i>Do you remember what his stats were against those teams. I thought I read he stunk against the US (except for jump shots). Something about not being able to handle the more physical play of the NBA. </i> No, actually they played the DreamTeam close until all three seven footers got into foul trouble, then the US blew it open. He also played against all of the stud HS players at the Addidas (or was it Nike) camp as an 18 year old. <i>first of all u cant include what you said about shaq, magic, and brand because they dominated in college which is better level of competition than CBA so the teams that drafted those players knew what they were getting</i> I totally disagree with that statement. Dominating in college doesn't neccessarily translate over to success in the NBA. Wayman Tisdale and Walter Berry were both NCAA player's of the year, but they were nothing special in the NBA. The statement that I was responding to was that Ming will be a bust because a guy that tall had never been too successful in the NBA. Those guys are perfectly valid examples to show that there are unique players who come along and are unlike anybody before them and start new trends. If you simply go with past trends, then you're always behind the curve, instead of ahead of the curve. <i>KG and Kobe were gambles but they also werent takin with the first pick in the draft. </i> So, several teams passed on them due to them being unproven. In retrospect, do you think that was a good move? I'm guessing that there are alot of teams that wished that they had taken those guys. Let's not end up being in that situation 3 years down the road. I'd rather be the team that took a Nowitzki, Bryant, McGrady or KG instead of the team that played it safe. <i>also how often does he play against the dream team? maybe once or twice in his life. atleast in college players get to play against solid competition over a 20-30 game season</i> Now days the draft is all about potential. HS kids and foreign players are going at the top of the draft. They won't have played 20 or 30 games against solid competion. Next year, Lebron James will have played zero college games, but he's going to go #1. He would have gone #1 if he had been allowed to come out this year. If Kendric Perkins or the Baby Shaq kid from Greece declare, then they could be right behind him. <i>if u dont wanna listen too peoples opinios why do u even post on this board? why dont you jus wait till news becomes official. if i wanna state my opinion i will. i dont care what jerry west, larry brown, or you say. </i> I post on this board to discuss the Rockets. Did I say that I don't want to listen to other's opinions? Didn't the fact that I responded to the opinion indicated that I listened to it? But, listening and accepting the opionion are two different things. Personally, if I am presented with two differing opinions on basketball, one from NBA coaches and execs and the other from a poster on the BBS, I'm going to believe the NBA coaches. Wouldn't you do the same? Especially when the other opinion has presented no facts to back up their argument? <i>Mings is in a totally different situation then all these players. they can workout with teams whenever they want and the teams can have a better idea of how good they will be. they dont have some government telling them what they can and cant do.</i> NBA teams have already made their mind up on Ming. They've seen him play live and they've seen him play on tape. True we might not get a private workout, but we also didn't get a private workout of Eddie Griffen last year. The Chinese government has nothing to do with the discussion we were having. We were discussing Ming's abilities and skills.
While the Insider News is very intriguing considering the trade involving Odom, Im not sure that I see it happening. For one reason only. Why would the Clippers be willing to take on the hefty contract of Glen Rice?
i think u might have taken this the wrong way but i wasnt implying jus cause they dominated in college they were gonna be great in the nba. im not an idiot i know juan dixon isnt gonna be scorin 30 pts a game next year. all im sayin is that coaches and gms get to see those players play more often than foreign players and they knew what they were getting with the players coming out of college. sure it was a good move but none of these players were takin with the first pick where u have a lot more options. like we prolly have the option of getting a proven player. theres plenty of high school, underclassmen, and foreign players who wont be good. sure if u wanna take the gamble go for it but i dont think we need to. we already have a franchise player and good nucleus we jus need to fill a couple of holes. if we trade the first pick we can easily fill that whole with a solid player. do u really think all these players are gonna be as good as kobe or garnett? if they were then we'll have league full of superstars soon. the kids that play against solid competition are the ones that help their teams right away like battier. sure theres gasol but like i said before theres plenty of forgein players who havent panned out to be good in the nba. we dont need to gamble on the next superstar we need someone we know will be solid. in one of ur previous posts u said "It's not the opinion of the people on this board that we're talking about. It's the opinion of NBA coaches/GMs and scouts." i might be taking it the wrong way but to me it sounds like ur saying u dont wanna see these people opions because they arent gms or nba coaches. of cousre everyone if gonna listen to an NBA coach or GM before they listen to someone who has no inside info, but can u tell me about the facts that gms and coaches have told u? he doesnt have to have a private workout i jus want to see him play against some real competition not chris christofeson. i said before Rudy and CD prolly have seen somethin i havent if they want him so bad, but until i see him play against some real competition i dont think he's gonna be a superstar. it doesnt matter how good his skills are if the chinese want to pull him out of the nba whenever they want his skill are basically useless to us.
you honestly think that in hindsight that all the teams that passed on Kobe would still pass on him for the #1 slot? C'mon. Kobe went in 1996. That draft went as follows: 1. Allen Iverson Georgetown Philadelphia 2. Marcus Camby Massachusetts Toronto 3. Shareef Abdur-Rahim California Vancouver 4. Stephon Marbury Georgia Tech Milwaukee (*) 5. Ray Allen Connecticut Minnesota (*) 6. Antoine Walker Kentucky Boston 7. Lorenzen Wright Memphis LA Clippers 8. Kerry Kittles Villanova New Jersey 9. Samaki Walker Louisville Dallas 10. Erick Dampier Mississippi State Indiana 11. Todd Fuller North Carolina State Golden State 12. Vitaly Potapenko Wright State Cleveland 13. Kobe Bryant Lower Merion (PA) HS Charlotte Almost without a doubt (with Iverson being the only possible exception) Kobe is the best player on that list, and undoubtedly, Philadelphia would take him first if they could go back to 1996. Sure, it took Kobe a few years to develope, but it took AI a few years to develope at the right position. Sure, AI led Philly to the Finals....Kobe has two rings and hits clutch shots in the 4th. What about KG: 1. Joe Smith Maryland Golden State 2. Antonio McDyess Alabama LA Clippers (*) 3. Jerry Stackhouse North Carolina Philadelphia 4. Rasheed Wallace North Carolina Washington 5. Kevin Garnett Faraggut HS (IL) Minnesota those are good players that were taken ahead of him, but, at least in my opinion, any team that could have picked first that year would have taken KG in retrospect (had they known what we do now). Of course, we can't fast forward a few years to see how Ming will actually end up, and then come back and make our decision. But KG and Kobe were both players that should have been drafted higher (probably #1 in my opinion), but weren't because of some of the same concerns raised here - hasn't played against good talent, as a generalization shoudln't be successful (it was rare that highschool players were, much less guards), etc. The point is, I think, we're just as likely to regret taking Ming in a few years if we don't as we are to regret having chosen him if we do. This is another generalization. Just because he hasn't played against "real" competition doesn't mean he won't be a superstar (see KG, Kobe, McGrady, Lewis, John Stockton, Jermain O'neal, etc, etc). Furthermore, while I have no idae what the level of talent in the CBA is, I'd be willing to be it is fairly "real", extremely competitive and well-coached. For that matter, I'd be willing to bet some of those teams (Yao's Shanghai Sharks, or the Beijing Rockets) would do very very well against D-I college competition or in the NCAA 64 tournament. The fact that Ming absolutely dominated in that league (especially in the playoffs ; 40+pts, 20+boards, a number of blocks, very very high shooting percentage) makes me giddy with anticipation. Having seen the Drew Gooden's and Jason Williams of the draft, I still higly doubt they could have put up comparable numbers in the CBA themselves - but we'll never know that, just as we'll never know how Ming would have fared on some D-I team. The Rockets have two tasks in front of them. First, their scouts and talent people, along with Rudy, CD and Les must judge whether or not Ming has the talent to go number 1. I believe they have done this and think Ming is as good as advertised, despite what history generalizes for us about players who are taller the 7'3 or who haven't played against college level competion (if they really havent) before. Second, and as important, they must be assured that he will sign with them with a reasonable contract. These concerns about the Chinese gov't are real and worrysome. As are possible concerns about long-term health and Ming's ability to physically stand up to the punishment of the NBA. Given the reported number of trade offers coming their way, the Rockets certainly do have a tough decision ahead of them.
<i> i think u might have taken this the wrong way but i wasnt implying jus cause they dominated in college they were gonna be great in the nba. im not an idiot i know juan dixon isnt gonna be scorin 30 pts a game next year. all im sayin is that coaches and gms get to see those players play more often than foreign players and they knew what they were getting with the players coming out of college. </i> I agree that scouts have a better idea about players they see more often. I guess where I differ is that today's draft process is about finding the guys with the best potential. It's not about trying to not make mistakes. Players are coming out so early that there's not really any choice on doing it another way. If you just evaluate them on what they've done, then you're going to miss out on all of the young guys that are entering the draft as high schoolers, foreign players and college freshman. If Shaq or Duncan are there to be selected, then that's a no brainer, you do it. But, those guys don't come along too often. So, it comes down to do you want to take a chance on a star or settle for a good player. Nowdays, most teams are opting for maximizing the upside, rather than minimizing the down side. <i> sure it was a good move but none of these players were takin with the first pick where u have a lot more options. like we prolly have the option of getting a proven player. theres plenty of high school, underclassmen, and foreign players who wont be good. sure if u wanna take the gamble go for it but i dont think we need to. we already have a franchise player and good nucleus we jus need to fill a couple of holes. if we trade the first pick we can easily fill that whole with a solid player. </i> To me there are only a handful of franchise players in the NBA. Guys like Shaq, Kobe, Garnett, Duncan and possibly Iverson or Webber. Francis is my favorite NBA player, and he's got huge potential but he's not a franchise player yet. Realistically, if he hadn't been voted as a starter to the All-Star game, he probably wouldn't be an All-Star yet. We have some pretty major holes to fill. Since we're not going to be able to acquire a Duncan or Garnett, I don't see it being easy to acquire a player to fill those holes. Who do you see as a possible candidate for us to acquire by trading the #1 pick? I guess we differ in that I don't agree that we're only a player or two away. <i> do u really think all these players are gonna be as good as kobe or garnett? if they were then we'll have league full of superstars soon. the kids that play against solid competition are the ones that help their teams right away like battier. sure theres gasol but like i said before theres plenty of forgein players who havent panned out to be good in the nba. we dont need to gamble on the next superstar we need someone we know will be solid. </i> We aren't going to be contenders in the next 2 or 3 years, so why not be willing to wait for a star to develop? We're simply not good enough to only need a couple of good players to turn us into a contender. I guess the question comes down to what is your ultimate goal? If you just want to get better as quickly as possible, then take the safe pick. But, if you want to give yourself a chance to ultimately win it all, then you need higher caliber players, and that means assuming a risk when you draft them. <i> in one of ur previous posts u said "It's not the opinion of the people on this board that we're talking about. It's the opinion of NBA coaches/GMs and scouts." i might be taking it the wrong way but to me it sounds like ur saying u dont wanna see these people opions because they arent gms or nba coaches. of cousre everyone if gonna listen to an NBA coach or GM before they listen to someone who has no inside info, but can u tell me about the facts that gms and coaches have told u? </i> I don't think you understood the context of my reply. The post that I was responding to made a reference to a statement that I had made in a couple of threads. My statement was that if you go read the quotes from NBA coache/scouts/GMs, the worst that anybody had said about Yao's basketball skills was that he would be a young Ric Smits with better passing skills and more heart. That post said "This was mentioned further up the thread, but the whole thing about Ming being, worst case scenario, another Rik Smits is a total freak'in joke. How can so many people who have never seen this guy play know so much about his game? Ridiculous." What my reply was trying to say was that these statements were made by NBA people, who have seen him, not by me or some other BBS poster. My statement had nothing to do with me wanting or not wanting to see other's opinions. I was simply pointing out that these statements not made by people that had never seen Yao play. There's an entire thread devoted to nothing but quotes by NBA personel people regarding Yao. Find that thread (I'd link it for you, but the search capabilities are currently disabled) and check it out if you want to see the quotes. <i> he doesnt have to have a private workout i jus want to see him play against some real competition not chris christofeson. i said before Rudy and CD prolly have seen somethin i havent if they want him so bad, but until i see him play against some real competition i dont think he's gonna be a superstar. </i> I agree that if he were a know quantitly, then everybody would be more comfortable, but I don't think we can afford to let the players lack of exposure stop us from drafting them if we feel they have the skills we need. Of course, the bottom line is, Yao doesn't have to be a superstar for him to be the right pick for us. He simply needs to fill our needs better than anybody else we could get. If there's somebody else out there that you feel we could acquire and would be a better fit, then make a pitch for them here. Things like that make for lively debates. <i> it doesnt matter how good his skills are if the chinese want to pull him out of the nba whenever they want his skill are basically useless to us. </i> The discussion that we were having was based around whether or not Yao would be a complete bust in the NBA. That discussion was based on his skills, not on the issues related to acquiring him. Worries, about the Chinese demands are perfectly valid, and are the topic of countless other threads. But, in the context of the debate that I was having, they are irrelivent.
aelliot, i guess what it all boils down to is like u said if u think we need another superstar or not. personally i dont believe we need another superstar. we jus need a solid SF and i dont even think we need a great center. with the lack of really good centers in the league and the new rules allowing teams to play zone defense u dont need a great center to compete in against every team. i think if cato could get a little better offensively and work a lil harder he could easily be servicable center in the league. i agree that today most teams are looking to add younger players for how good they could be in the future, but i dont think we need a young player who may or may not become an all star in the future. 2 seasons ago we were very close to making the playoffs and last season we could have been a lot better if it werent for all the injuries we had. i dont think we're rebuilding anymore so i dont think we need an all star we jus need a good player. i dont understand why not getting duncan or garnett makes a huge hole in our lineup. they both play PF and we have three in MoT, Griff, and KT. in a couple years i think Griff could be a very good player. hes got great defensive skills and his offensive skills should develop within the next couple of seasons. i think if we added a player like Odom or Rashard Lewis and we were also able to get a couple extra first round picks for some depth it would definately make us a contender within 2 seasons and more than likely would put us in the playoffs next season. i thought we werent jus talking about Mings skills i thought we were talking about if he was a good pick at #1. the chinese government definately comes into play if he is good pick or not. however if rudy t and CD know this guy will be good or he'll fill our hole at center then i dont mind drafting him i would jus like to see how good he really is.
Jay, i never said that if teams had a chance to go back in the future an redo the draft they wouldnt draft kobe or garnett. i dont understand where u got that. also i dont understand how u can compare the CBA to D-1 basketball how u can say they are prolly they are near the same level of basketball. finally i dont know what the deal with the chinese government is and i dont think u do and until we find out some details i dont think we should consider picking him. also ive said plenty of times that if rudy and cd have seen this guy and know he'll work for our team i dont mind drafting him.
"also i dont understand how u can compare the CBA to D-1 basketball how u can say they are prolly they are near the same level of basketball." I found this on another thread. The Chinese National team defeated the USA team 83-82 in August, 2001. The US team roster: Ely Melvin Baker Maurice Barrett Andre Barron Earl Reed Justin Slay Tamar Dickau Daniel Holden Tahj Barbour Antwain Mason Roger Owens Chris Baxter Lonny Smith Tyler Dixon Juan Greer Lynn Dudley Erwin
Lets see, Tyson chandler avg 30pts and 20rebs and high schoolers and goes number 2, Darius Miles does the same and goes number 3, Stromile Swift avg 17pts and 8 rebs and goes number 2, Kwame Brown avg 30pt 15 rebs against high schoolers and goes numer 1, Yao Ming plays against professional grown ass men avg 25pts and 15 rebs at the age of 21 and people are questioning whether he can play right now or not. He is clearly more skilled than any of the above listed, bigger and stronger, yet he will be a bust. Every gm in the league who say him says he's atheletic, can run, putthe ball on the floor with any hand and is huge and can shoot, yet he will be a bust. His comparison range from at worse Rik Smits 15pts 7 rebs to a young Sabonis who was mentioned befor the torn achillies as the best center in the world. Sometimes i wish the knicks or someone would have won the lotto and we would hav stayed at number 5 or so. Then we wouldn't have the luxury of argument about taking this guy. Like someone said before, if this guy was killing high school kids, they would be talking about him as the next coming. I hope he kills Ben Wallace in the championship games. Then people would probably say, " Ben Wallace is only 6'8"
Me too! everyone was a lot more calm and peaceful until the rockets ended up with the #1 pick. I guess that is what comes with being in the drivers seat.
