So I look around and scattered through out the message board universe is thread after thread about how terribly thin we are. In every "Weakest bench" topic we are always top 5. So that got me thinkin', should i succum to popular perception, or use my brain and see the real picture? I believe the predictions of doom and gloom come with our higher expectations. The general Power Rankings have the Rockets at around 4-5 in the West. This makes us among the big dogs, prompting skepticism from fans who are unaccepting of the New Order. And the first thing they see as worthy ammo is the oft-used but seldom pondered upon Depth problem. Is our depth "problem" something new? Our roster last year, for those that can think back that far, was much much thinner than now. In fact i can't think of a team with less depth than us last year. Throughout the whole year, we had SIX regular rotation players. Yao Francis Mobley Jim Jackson Taylor Cato Those were the ONLY players that played in every game, barring injury or Super Bowl. After Moochie we eventually had to find a backup point- the 41 year-old Mark Jackson that averaged 13 minutes a game. So for countless games we had a 7 man rotation of Mark Jackson + all of the above. Let me repeat. The only players that came off the bench in many, many, many games were Mark Jackson and Maurice Taylor. That's Pathetic. With a capital P. Yet were people b****ing about our depth? Nooo. At least not the PTI and Chad Fords of the world. Aka Pathetic imbeciles. Now fast forward 12 months and look at our roster now. Yao Tmac Howard Jim Jackson Ward Taylor Sura Lue Deke Thats NINE players that will be in the regular rotation barring injury or Weisbrod related chokings. Nine.....six......nine......six...... Oh yeah, and i forgot, we were the 7th seed in the West with that 6 man rotation + loan of Mark Jackson for a few months. Now whether our depth this year is good or bad is debateable. Quantity != Quality. Yes i know. BUT. Quantity > 0. And thats what we had last year, 0. If you(speaking to non-Rocket fans of message boards across the universe) didn't think our depth was a problem last year, then stop b****ing about our depth this year. For those that think we are just a 2 man team, you need to watch out. Pay attention before you catch yourself on the receiving end of my balls smacking you in the face.
I agree with your point. It's just that now that we are hopefully going to be an upper echelon team, the analysts have gotta pick apart our weaknesses. A 7th seed team is flawed by definition I guess, but a top 5 team is supposed to be solid in all areas. Also, the depth was not really an issue last year, but it could become one over the long haul. If JJ keeps playing so much, he could burn out. And we had Steve last year who could play the 2, so his versatility helped in that regard. Cato could play some backup 5 as well as starting 4. Now most of our players are not as versatile.
We had more than a 6 man rotation last year. Moochie/Jackson and Spoon/Padgett played too. Anyway, the problem isn't overall depth but quality depth. Last year we platooned at PF, basically, and that was it. This year we will platoon at PG and PF. Likewise, last year, if Steve or Yao couldn't score, we had a 3rd scorer in Cat. This year Howard is the next scorer, which I don't think anybody would argue is an upgrade over cat being it.
Howard isn't an upgrade over Cat, but T-mac will bring the points more consistently than anyone from last year's team (and this year's team for that matter). If Yao can improve his scoring, then we'll be just fine with JJ and Howard as the third and fourth options. I'm a bit more worried about rebounding. Gotta be able to control the defensive boards if you want to be a contender. BTW Sam, haven't seen you around much. Couple quips here and there, but you're not getting into the debates like you used to. Don't tell me that you've found a life outside this board, or (gasp) started working. Now that would be a real shame.
Who were the backups on the Bulls during their championship years? Or the Lakers????? Get my drift, backups are not crucial, you win with starters. DD
good point. however, steve isn't the scorer that tmac is making a 3rd option less important. also, we did platoon at only PF last year with cato, mo, spoon and padgett all getting time at the 4. this year we are NOT platooning at the 4. if by platooning you mean using 3+. ever tho we have 4 PF's, only jh and mo will see time barring injury or foul trouble. we are definitly not platooning at PG. only ward a lue will split minutes there. as far as our overall depth i agree with the thread starter. we only used 7-8 players a game last year. this year we will see 9 (and that isn't counting when sura comes back). compare last year to this one: returning players need not be compared to themselves... cato = jh - even swap here. D for O. cat < tmac - no need to explain steve > ward - see above still even in as far as the starters go.... Mjax < lue - upgrade here even tho jax is smarter. pike < sura - no contest AG < bowen - ryan is everything he wanted in AG. so far even tho we got more talented we still didnt get any deeper. there is a clear difference... but, lets finnish up: nobody < deke! - here we go, we are one man deaper. well, two if you count bowen over griff who never played. two men deeper. that is a pretty big deal in the NBA. this year we are more talented (in 5 spots listed above) and 2 men deeper.
Those six were the only six that were good enough for the rotation. We had other guys who would come in for spotup minutes. Their playing time was erratic, or none existent, and they were just as likely to not play or play in the next game. These guys include: Spoon Piatkowski Padgett Nachbar Wilks Adrian Griffin None of them were rotation players. This year we have a similar flock of misfits. OK i'll be nice and call them "specialists". Bowen Spoon Nachbar Padgett Gaines Hawkins(possibly) Thats the same as last year. But we have 3 more rotation players- a backup Point, a backup SG, and backup Center. First of all not everything is about scoring. We have people coming off the bench that provide other aspects of the game that are essential to WINNING. We have hustlers like Sura, Bowen. Change of pace PG in Lue. Rebounder/shotblocker in Deke. Second of all, i DOUBT we will be having problems with scoring this year, so thats a moot point. Howard might be slightly less of a scorer than Mobley, but Tmac is a much, MUCH better scorer than Francis. And especially better than a Francis in a situation that didn't suit his abilities. Heck, Antoine Walker can put up 16 points on 40% shooting- which basically proves that anybody would be a better scoring option than Steve, much less Tmac. Thirdly, depth for scoring is probably something we don't need, especially with Yao and Tmac. The offense should revolve around them, with capable shooters surrounding them. We don't need a balanced attack when you have 2 superstars. Speaking of shooters, we improved in that aspect as well. Last year we had two shooters: Jackson and Mobley. We also had 2 anti-shooters, guys who basically allowed their defenders to back off of them and double team: Cato and Francis(and Mark Jackson actually). This year, we have four shooters: Tmac, Jackson, Ward and Lue. Also we got rid of our 2 anti-shooters. So thats a +6 realistically. I would say that probably is gonna open up our offense a bit, especially for Yao.
TD, whether or not the players were part of the rotation permanently, the fact of the matter is that we went with an 8-9 man rotation one last year and not a six man one, and to portray it otherwise is misleading. I'm going to pass on measuring hustle/change of pace/intangibles -- no point in doing that empirically. Likewise, if "anybody" can put up 16 points at 40% from the guard spot, why don't more do it? Answer: because "anybody" can't - in fact, most can't. But anyway, that's not the point. Of course McGrady is a better scorer than Francis. But that doesn't mean jack with regard to depth. Francis and Mobley as components of your teams guard lineup is necessarily "deeper" than McGrady. Granted, I suppose you could say that's unfair and count howard too, but who cares, really? We added yet another undersized, fair to middlin PF. We already have 2 in Taylor/Witherspoon, and now 3. Depth was no issue there. Finally, I note you celebrate the loss of the "anti shooters", but yet ignore the addition of Dikembe Mutumbo, who makes Cato look like Wilt Chamberlain in Hershey, Pennsylvania. In addition, let me get this straight as far as your definition goes: Francis is an anti-shooter at 29% last season but McGrady at 33% is a pure shooter? Highly dubious that that 4% makes a huge difference if the decision is to let a man shoot a high percentage shot inside or not. EDIT, also, if adding McGrady is accordingly adding a "Shooter" at 33%, why don't you net out the loss of Mobley at 42%? Seems like you are playing with only one side of the ledger.
Ok lets put it this way, we had a six man PERMANENT rotation, while the other 2-3 guys sucked so much that they were just used for spot duty. Guys playing 11-13 minutes a game, 40 games for the year, are hardly rotation players. Portraying it otherwise is misleading. Are you trying to say only points matter? Only Stats matter? Oh I can't measure it, i'll pass. Wah wah wah. Or, are you trying to say Sura, Bowen do not provide hustle? Deke doesn't provide rebounding and shotblocking? If it doesn't show up in stats surely you can still SEE it. And did we have these things coming off the bench last year? No. We had the Ghost of Christmas Oakley. Ok this is where TD lays the smack-down, cause that statement is just ridiculous. Tracy McGrady 28.0 Allen Iverson 26.4 P. Stojakovic 24.2 Kobe Bryant 24.0 Ray Allen 23.0 Paul Pierce 23.0 Vince Carter 22.5 Michael Redd 21.7 C. Anthony 21.0 LeBron James 20.9 C. Maggette 20.7 Sam Cassell 19.8 G. Arenas 19.6 Shawn Marion 19.0 Larry Hughes 18.8 M. Finley 18.6 Mike Bibby 18.4 Ron Artest 18.3 S. Jackson, 18.1 Rashard Lewis 17.8 R. Hamilton 17.6 Eddie Jones 17.3 Q. Richardson 17.2 JUWAN HOWARD 17.0 (I know he's not a guard, but just for fun) C. Billups 16.9 Jason Terry 16.8 L. Sprewell 16.8 Joe Johnson 16.7 Ok thats were i draw the line. Joe Johnson. When Joe freakin' Johnson scores more than you.... yeah. ANYBODY CAN DO IT. Oh, i take that back. You have a point, most can't. Because most shoot better than 40%. BOO YAH. /End smack-down I like how you're like, Oh but theres Juwan, but hey WHO CARES. Not like he exists. Haha. Now lets look at REALITY, instead of your little fantasy world. Its not just Francis and Mobley vs. Tmac. We also have Ward, Lue and Sura for Guards. So the real comparison is: Francis/Mark Jackson Mobely vs. Ward/Lue Tmac/Sura OOPS. Oh man, I'm at a lost of words for this one. Cato 25.3MINS .447FG% 1.4BLK 6.8REB 6.1PTS Deke 23.0MINS .478FG% 1.9BLK 6.7REB 5.6PTS I guess I'll just let the numbers do the talking. Anybody who've seen the preseason games would think your blind. In the 4 games Deke played in he showed more offensive prowess than Cato has in his life. Ok maybe thats an exaggeration. In his career then. The whole point of "anti-shooter" is that his defender will leave him to double team, daring him to shoot. Are you denying PGs left Francis to double team daring him to shoot? If you are, your WRONG. Francis is not a bad 3 pt shooter. In fact he is a career .346% 3pt shooter. The problem is he is a terrible spotup shooter. That is proven from last year- .292. He needs to come off the dribble or pullup on a break. Tmac on the other hand is an exellent spotup shooter. And besides, do you honestly think Tmac's defender is gonna leave him and go double Yao? And what are you talking about netting out Mobely's %, i was talking about anti-shooters not %s. In that case we will have to net in Lue's % and Wards % and you'll be eating you words. My point was that of our 5 starters last year, defenders could leave Francis and Cato to go double Yao- hence anti-shooter. Now that we have Ward and Howard in their place, defenders can't do that. And if they do, we will make them pay with Wards 40% 3s and Howard's midrange J. I may be playing with alot of things, but i for sure am not playing with only one side of the ledge mister.
TD, a fiery post and I admire your moxie. 1. as to the one about intangibles: I'm not saying they have no value, I'm saying they can't be empirically measured to a point where two jackasses on a basketball BBS will be able to prove one thing or another (hence my use of the term "empirically") and on the grandly pointless scale of pointless internet sports arguments, rank very very high: 2. I would like you to list the NBA guards that score under 16 points a game. Thx. 3. Well, I didn't integrate Sura into my comparison because he hasn't suited up in the games I've seen. Kind of hard to count on a guy for "depth" if he sits the bench right? Especially a guy with a knack for missing 20-30 or so games every other year. As for the rest...great. We have two average to mediocre players at PG while before we had one good one and oone lousy one. I guess that makes us more 'even', and I suppose you could say deeper, but I'm not popping any champagne corks 4. I hate to get intangible on you, but if you think Deke is a viable offensive player, you are dead wrong. At least Cato could run the occasional pick & alley. Have you watched Dikembe play? he's such a negative on offense, the guy just clogs the lane and calls for the ball...ugh. At least Cato knew how to get the F out the way. 5. Teams are going to leave these guys to double Yao in any event, be it Francis, Mcgrady, or whoever. a 30% shot from Mcgrady or anybody else is a lot better shot than a 76% one from Yao. That's why the Rockets do the exact same on defense. But anyway, you opine that we have added deadeye sharpshooters sufficient to make them pay; I am doubtful. Let's leave it there. Of course, all of this is exclusively offensentric, defense and rebounding is another matter. Oh, and Dadakota thanks for your contribution to this forum.
1. My point is no measuring is needed. Something > Nothing. Maybe Sura, Lue and Bowen don't give us as much hustle as i think they will. Maybe Deke won't get as many rebounds and blocks as i think he will. Still. At least they're THERE. As opposed to having essentially only Mo and Mark Jackson off the bench. (And Mark Jackson for only 13 minutes) 2. I list 27 guards. Thats almost 1 guard per team who was a better scorer than Francis. These are all starters. Steve was a starter. I think we should compare starters with starters. I think it would be pointless to list all the IR players and benchwarmers to boost up Steves value. Of the Guards that actually played, 27 were better scorers. End of story. This is no knock on Steve though. He will probably score 22+ next year in Orlando. Him scoring very poorly and very inefficiently were functions of Jeff's offense, which did not fit Steve's "playground" style at all. 3. Sura hasn't suited up but from what Jeff has said, Sura will be playing lots of minutes when he does. He was projected as a starter. In any case, even if he sucks he is still better than the nobody that was behind Cat last year. Mark Jackson played only 13 minutes a game, thats hardly depth. 4. Ok i guess you haven't seen the preseason games so i won't be as hard on you. Deke is Money. Deke is beautiful. His hook is beautiful. His fade away is beautiful. He is truely an orgasmic player to behold. Ok I'm kidding. He looks like a piece of ****. And his shots aren't pretty either. But he's still MONEY. He is shooting .556 from the field with hooks, jumpers and layins, cuz by god he isn't dunking them. Cato had ZERO offense. His "offense" included an alley oops from Steve and nothing else. And i don't call that offense. I call that the ability to jump off the ground. He couldn't make a 4 footer to save his life. Deke, who may never be able to dunk again, scores .556 with awkward cross the lane skyhooks and jordanesqe fadeaways. 5. Contrary to Steve, an open spotup 3pointer will be a welcome sight for Tmac. He is a career .354 shooter from 3, and if he was left open, I guarantee that goes above .40. But that won't happen because nobody in their right mind is going to double off of Tmac. Unless they want a butt whoopin' from their coach. You are right, a .30 shot is better than Ming down low. But my point is Tmac isn't a .30 shooter. .40+ vs. 76% from 2 is a different story. And yes this is all very offensentric. And we lost some D in the starting lineup in Cato. However the room Howard and Ward will open up on offense will more than make up for it IMHO. But we will have to see. JVG preaches team defense and gang-bounding, so i don't think the loss of one rebounder/defender will be that much of a hit.
m_cable, Cat vs Howard is moot point when compared to each other. They both bring decent production for their respective positions. But, the reason that Howard is an *upgrade* for OUR team is that we already have a SG replacement: TMac. And more to the point, we have a Cato replacement in Howard. And because Howard, an inside player with a mid-range jumper, can actually hit his shots -- as opposed to brick layer Cato -- Howard's addition IS an upgrade to OUR current team. Sure, Cat's outside shooting was nice. But for our team, a PF that can actually hit a 15fter (and those easy 2 footers that Cato had trouble with) is much more desirable. Can Howard rebound better than MoT? Yes.
I dont know if this is a point worth considering but if you have like ten guys on a team that want to shoot. Then if those ten guys dont get shots they get angry and start forcing shots (ahem Steve and Cuttino). This years team has two main guys that need to shoot, Yao and McGrady. Every other player will feed off them and thats all this team needs. A team is about players that compliment each other and thats what is soo beautiful about this basketball team. Nearly all the players complement each other. ward and jackson both shot nearly 40% from the 3 pt line last year (space the floor), Howard and Taylor are good 15 ft jump shooters (more spacing the floor), and Mcgrady, Jackson, howard, Yao, Mutombo, Bowen and even lue(against smaller players), are or can be quality defenders. Rebounding is a concern yes but every team has a weakness... didn't the 95 rockets rank almost last in offensive rebounds? I dont know maybe I'm wrong with my assessment but I dont really think there is anything wrong REALLY wrong with our team. Guess next Tuesday we'll find out for sure.
