I would have to agree with the people that feel we can't offer Minn what other teams can. Chicago - Package of Chandler, Rose and Williams or Crawford would be VERY attractive (plus Garnett is sent out of the division and out of conference) Golden State - Package of Jamison, Dampier and Richardson Seattle - Lewis, Barry and filler Sacramento - Peja, BJackson and Clark Plus, no way Minnesota trades Garnett within their own division. This rarely, if ever, happens.
You have to offer Francis. We won't keep three max contracts. ACtually four max contracts, as Garnett's would count for two. And Minnesota would never take Steve (they don't like him), and we wouldn't send Steve to a place that he really wouldn't like. So it would have to be a 3-way trade, the 3rd team being in the Leastern Conference.
Back to an earlier post, I would trade Yao for KG in a heartbeat. KG is what we "hope" Yao becomes, and isn't much older. It is also not a given that Yao is going to ever be as good as KG. Listen I love Yao too, but I love the Rox much more, and as far as a pure basketball move, I would take KG over Yao anyday of the week. With that said though, noway the FO trades Yao because of his marketabilily.
I agree, Yao for KG, but it wont happen Yao has 6 billion fans backing him. However, I dont think we can compete with the package the Bulls are said to be offering. Other than Steve and his so-called Star appeal, they would be getting four-five quality players compared to one or two from us (including bloated contracts). There's got to be something we are missing though, LUXURY TAX or something because we all know if a deal can be done the Rockets are usually in the thick of things. For word to not have leaked from the organization means the Rockets will probably pass on KG.
You value too much of Rice's contract. Nine (9) mils will get you a second tier star at best. If it can get us someone like Brand, then we might as well keep it and lure Brand here instead. I really do not understand your logic. I read this and understand it to mean that $9 million does not get you a top flight player. But, you think we can use the money to sign Brand. I guess you are saying that Brand is a second tier star/player. Also in response, since we are over the cap, we would not be able to sign Brand without help from a third team. If you look at it in term of money alone, why don't Minn just simply lets KG walk and frees up 25 mils. They can get 2,3 young studs like you promise! I have to get back to you with an answer to this one. However, I am pretty sure that the contracts that are left on Minnesota's books would leave less than 9 million for free agents. Trading Rice (after acquiring him) would give Minnesota more flexibility. If that is not simple enough to convince you, compare KG to Yao Ming for the Rockets. Let's just say Mo, EG, Cat, GR (or Rahim) are on another team. Are you willing to trade Yao for them plus 20 other scrubs? You are missing a big piece of the puzzle. Yao's contract does not take up 70% of the budget/cap (player salaries). That is why Minnesota has to trade Garnett. Your analogy really does not apply in this situation.
Let me try again. Do you not think 9 mil from Rice's contract = a free agent star that is worthwhile for Minn. ? That is the basis of your orginal argument, isn't it? If it is true, I gave Brand as an example of such star and said we might as well deal with Brand ourselves, no need for KG at all. I myself don't think that is enough -> 9 mils from Rice's contract does NOT equal a star -> Our offer to Minn. is lame. This argument is made based on talent of the players. I said no way would you trade a player in the top 5 or top 10 for a roster full of average players.
Do you not think 9 mil from Rice's contract = a free agent star that is worthwhile for Minn. ? Yes, 9 million is plenty of money to sign a star player today. With the inception of the luxury tax, teams are not going to resign players to excessive contracts. The only players that can command "excessive" types of contracts are players such as: Duncan, Bryant, Shaq, McGrady and Garnett. The rest will only get max contracts, at best, after their rookie contracts expire. The 30 year olds will basically get what they can or move on. I think it will be interesting to see what type of contract Payton receives this off-season. (3 year 33 million is my guess) So, 9 million is more than enough for the first year of a multiyear contract. This argument is made based on talent of the players. I said no way would you trade a player in the top 5 or top 10 for a roster full of average players. The premise of this entire thread has to do with Garnett having to leave Minnesota because Minnesota cannot surround him with the right players to really challenge for a championship. Asking if I would trade Garnett for a bunch of average players (I disagree with this also) is not really the point. If you want me to answer this then the answer is NO, I wouldn't. However, all things are not equal, this isn't mutually exclusive arguments. Mchale and the rest of the people in charge in Minnesota will have to walk a fine line. They have to spin this in such way that the fans think Garnett would be better off somewhere else. Internally, I think the Minnesota franchise is starting to understand that they would probably be better off without Garnett (and his contract) in the long run. Minnesota is not only trading Garnett, they are also trading away his contract. That is the key. If you remember back to the Pippen trade to Portland. He was a top 5-10 type player at that point. (perception not reality as it played out). How is that any different than this current situation? Implicitly, Garnett is saying he is leaving when he didn't sign an extension. Minnesota does not have the leverage, Garnett does!
You actually sound reasonable and have some valid points ... at first glance. Let's wait and use the money to get Brand then? Speaking of spin! You somehow spin this to make it sound good! How on earth that Minn fails to make it work with KG and the Rockets can? You essentially say Minn should take several of our bad contracts in lieu of KG's. Never mind that KG can play BB and those other scrubs can't?! You must be able to perform miracle. Please make this happen and let us have KG with Yao and SF too!
Having read all the postings and thaught about it a couple of days I have come to the conclusion that Garnett is a millstone arround the neck of the Timberwolves. It realy limits them from developing players and improving their salary. Why would we want to take on a basketball player who gets paid about twice the going Max. We dont want to limit ourselves by putting so many eggs into one basket. It doesnt matter how good he is, he would only play one position. Let us learn from our own mistakes( Rice and Moochie) and the mistakes of others.
KG is a far cry from the mistakes we made with Rice or Mooch. KG earns his money (and that's alot to earn ). KG is better than anyone on our roster, and probably is better than anyone on our roster will ever be. I don't think the Wolves will trade KG, but if they did I would be the first 1 on this board wanting us to throw anybody we could to get him.
I really highly doubt that KG will be a Rocket. One good point is that the twolves do not want to send their all-start to a perennial rival. Over the years the Twolves have consistently been the Rockets greatest competitor. Also what package could be sent? I would say Yao or Steve and they are certaintly not going. So then you take...Mobley, Cato, Griffin, (still not enough), Rice, and possibly Posey. We would have to deplete our roster significantly. I dont see it happening.
Steve Francis, Glen Rice, Eddie Griffin, Moochie Norris, and a future 1st round pick for Kevin Garnett and Troy Hudson. Steve Francis Anthony Peeler Wally Sczerbiak Eddie Griffin Rasho Nesterovic... That isn't horrible.....maybe Flip Saunders will make Eddie a star and Francis a true point guard scoring superstar. And a 1st round pick. Troy Hudson/Jon Barry or Eddie House Cuttino Mobley/Jon Barry or Eddie House/Juaquin Hawkins Bostjan Nachbar/Kevin Garnett/Terence Morris Kevin Garnett/Maurice Taylor/Terence Morris Yao Ming/Kelvin Cato Not bad........... Now..someone ask Kevin Garnett if he wants to come!
Wasn't there an insider that suggested last year that the Rockets had discussions with the Wolves about Garnett? Was is Oleipere? Where is the search function when you need it!
I have made this arguement too. All of the RealGM/fantasy land diciples don't want to think about it because they would then realize that there is no chance of KG being traded to us.
They might make the deal, however, if they felt that they were getting depth/quality in return. And if they knew they would be realigned into the Leastern Conference when Charlotte joins the league.... But that's another story.
This is probably a pointless and off-topic post, but I've never said anything about this whole Garnett-to-Houston issue that's been brought up about a million and a half times before. I'd just like to say that after this year, I would offer anything and everything on our roster other than Stevie and Yao for Kevin Garnett. I mean EVERYTHING. Normally that wouldn't mean anything, I mean I'm sure that most people here would agree, but me saying this means a little more being that I'm a massive homer, as many of you probably know by now. Anyways, the point of the discussion is all moot because I would be willing to bet a small puppy's life that we will never see KG in a Rockets uniform.
If you want Garnett, without hurting anyteam, why not go crazy. Golden State trades: PF Danny Fortson (3.5 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 0.7 apg in 13.1 minutes) SG Jason Richardson (15.6 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 3.0 apg in 32.9 minutes) PF Troy Murphy (11.7 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 1.3 apg in 31.8 minutes) PG Gilbert Arenas (18.3 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 6.3 apg in 35.0 minutes) Golden State receives: PF Maurice Taylor (8.4 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 1.0 apg in 20.6 minutes) SF Lamar Odom (14.6 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 3.6 apg in 34.3 minutes) PG Andre Miller (13.6 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 6.7 apg in 36.4 minutes) SF Corey Maggette (16.8 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 1.9 apg in 31.3 minutes) Change in team outlook: +4.3 ppg, -4.6 rpg, and +1.9 apg. Houston trades: PF Maurice Taylor (8.4 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 1.0 apg in 20.6 minutes) C Kelvin Cato (4.5 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 0.3 apg in 17.1 minutes) SG Cuttino Mobley (17.5 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 2.9 apg in 41.7 minutes) PG Steve Francis (21.0 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 6.2 apg in 41.0 minutes) PF Eddie Griffin (8.6 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 1.1 apg in 24.5 minutes) Houston receives: PF Danny Fortson (3.5 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 0.7 apg in 17 games) PG Gilbert Arenas (18.3 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 6.3 apg in 82 games) PF Chris Wilcox (3.7 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 0.5 apg in 46 games) C Wang Zhizhi (4.4 ppg, 1.9 rpg, 0.3 apg in 41 games) SF Kevin Garnett (23.0 ppg, 13.4 rpg, 6.0 apg in 82 games) Change in team outlook: -7.1 ppg, +0.8 rpg, and +2.3 apg. L.A. Clippers trades: PF Elton Brand (18.5 ppg, 11.3 rpg, 2.5 apg in 39.6 minutes) SF Lamar Odom (14.6 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 3.6 apg in 34.3 minutes) PG Andre Miller (13.6 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 6.7 apg in 36.4 minutes) SF Corey Maggette (16.8 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 1.9 apg in 31.3 minutes) PF Chris Wilcox (3.7 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 0.5 apg in 10.4 minutes) C Wang Zhizhi (4.4 ppg, 1.9 rpg, 0.3 apg in 10.1 minutes) L.A. Clippers receives: SG Jason Richardson (15.6 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 3.0 apg in 82 games) PF Troy Murphy (11.7 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 1.3 apg in 79 games) SG Cuttino Mobley (17.5 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 2.9 apg in 73 games) PF Eddie Griffin (8.6 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 1.1 apg in 77 games) PG Troy Hudson (14.2 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 5.7 apg in 79 games) Change in team outlook: -4.0 ppg, -3.9 rpg, and -1.5 apg. Minnesota trades: SF Kevin Garnett (23.0 ppg, 13.4 rpg, 6.0 apg in 40.5 minutes) PG Troy Hudson (14.2 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 5.7 apg in 32.9 minutes) Minnesota receives: C Kelvin Cato (4.5 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 0.3 apg in 73 games) PG Steve Francis (21.0 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 6.2 apg in 81 games) PF Elton Brand (18.5 ppg, 11.3 rpg, 2.5 apg in 62 games) Change in team outlook: +6.8 ppg, +7.7 rpg, and -2.7 apg. Clippers get similar talent that put up similar numbers for players that are locked up with small contracts. Rockets get Garnett who will be phenomenal with Arenas. Wolves get a starting competitive team that put up more numbers in points and rebounds then the original team. SF and Brand will be great there. G.S. lose two pf for one pf and a swingman which they need. Progected line up and point, assist, rebound distribution: Rockets: Arenas 16ppg 7apg 3rpg Posey 14ppg 4apg 5rpg Garnett 25ppg 5apg 11rpg Fortson 6ppg 2apg 9rpg Ming 18ppg 3apg 10rpg This line up improves our rebounding a lot. Ming will get more shots and will help our lost of ppg there. Arenas is a better "pg" than Francis is. This is one crazy rebounding team that has many scoring options. Timberwolves: Francis 21ppg 6apg 5rpg Wally 17ppg 4apg 4rpg Smith 8ppg 2apg 6rpg Brand 22ppg 3apg 10rpg Cato 7ppg 1apg 8rpg Francis and Brand more than compensate for Hudson and Garnett. Cato adds more rebounds. This team is a lot better than the original team. Warriors: Miller 15ppg 8apg 3rpg Maggette 16ppg 3apg 4rpg Odom 14ppg 5apg 6rpg Jamison 20ppg 4apg 8rpg Foyle 10ppg 1apg 7rpg The best rebounding team in the league lost some rebounding presence. But rebounding is useless without players to put the ball in the basket. Enter Miller Maggette and Odom who can all score with ease. This is a more high scoring team then the original with Taylor to come off the bench for a spark in points. Clippers: Hudson 14ppg 7apg 3rpg Mobley 18ppg 3apg 3rpg Murphy 15ppg 2apg 10rpg Richardson 17ppg 5apg 4rpg Ely/Griffen 9ppg 2apg 8rpg This team is young. This team is talented. This team is completely on either rookie contracts or small contracts. They unload 3 potentially max contracts. In return they get a Murphy Griffen combo to make up for Brand. They get Hudson to make up for Miller. Mobley and Richardson can easily make up for the lost of Odom.
I did some research to come up with a numerical example on how to deal Francis's BYC for Kevin Garnett w/o involving a third team. The thought process is similar to what Joe posted but not exactly the same. The numbers would not have to go that high. This deal is one that would work: Francis - 10 mil Griffin - 2.4 mil Rice - 10 mil Cato - 7.3 mil for Garnett - 28 mil The reason this would work is as follows. The Rockets have to take back 5 mil less than they give out b/c of Francis's 50% BYC (half of 10 mil). The Rockets in this case are giving out 29.7 mil. They can take back 5 mil less or 24.7 mil. However, the number does not have to be EXACTLY 24.7 mil. It has to be within 115% plus 100K of 24.7 mil. The most the Rockets can take back then is 28.5 mil (24.7 * 1.15 + .100). They are taking back 28 mil which is inside that range and thus the deal would pass. Ofcourse more players can be added from each side, but this is the essential parameters it would work under. This is the method the Heat used to acquire a BYC Eddie Jones w/o involving a third team.
