Somehow, I don't think this is Bush's fault, or about the war in iraq. it sure is starting to look ugly though. http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/11/04/france.riots/index.html -- Fiery riots spread beyond Paris PARIS, France (CNN) -- Rioting erupted for an eighth straight night in the impoverished suburbs of Paris, with angry youths setting fire to a school, a bus depot, three warehouses and hundreds of vehicles. Although officials said the unrest late Thursday and early Friday was less intense than in previous nights, the disturbances spread outside the Paris region for the first time. Violence was reported overnight in some 20 communities around Paris and across the country, including areas near Rouen in northern France, Dijon in the east and Marseille in the south. (See firefighters battle blazes as riots spread outside Paris -- 1:36) The latest violence flared despite the presence of about 2,000 additional police officers -- and despite hopes that festivities marking the end of Ramadan would calm tensions. Much of the rioting has occurred in areas heavily populated by poor African Muslim immigrants and their French-born children who are weary of poverty, crime, poor education and unemployment. (Watch protesters explain why they are angry -- 2:29) The unrest has drawn attention to simmering discontent among much of France's Muslim population -- at an estimated 5 million, Western Europe's largest -- many of whom often complain of job discrimination and police harassment. While the troubled suburbs of Paris and other French cities are often the scene of unreported car-torchings and other small-scale violence, The Associated Press reported, the current unrest is unusual in terms of its duration and the way it has spread. As the violence entered its second week, more than 400 vehicles were destroyed across the entire Paris region overnight, including about two dozen buses at a terminal in Trappes near Versailles, authorities said. Officials said 187 vehicles and five buildings -- including three sprawling warehouses -- were destroyed in the Seine-Saint-Denis region north and east of the French capital. Also in Seine-Saint-Denis -- one of the worst-hit areas, located between central Paris and Charles de Gaulle airport -- youths fired buckshot at riot police vehicles in Neuilly-sur-Marne, according to the area's top official, Jean-Francois Cordet. In Stains, a group of 30 to 40 youths harassed police near a synagogue, AP quoted Cordet as saying. Elsewhere in France, teenagers torched five cars overnight in Dijon, regional official Paul Ronciere said. The youths were apparently angered by a police crackdown on drug trafficking in their neighborhood, AP reported. Eleven more cars were set ablaze at a housing project in Salon-de-Provence near Marseille, police said. However, police reported seeing fewer large groups of youths rioting, and "contrary to the previous nights, there were fewer direct clashes with the forces of order," AP quoted Cordet as saying. "The peak is now behind us," Gerard Gaudron, mayor of one of the worst-hit Paris suburbs, Aulnay-sous-Bois, told France-Info radio. He said parents were determined to keep their teenagers at home to prevent unrest. "People have had enough. People are afraid. It's time for this to stop," AP quoted Gaudron as saying. Police detained 27 people and reported two injuries -- one a policeman and another a handicapped person badly burned during an arson attack on a city bus, Reuters reported. 'Calm down' The rioting began last Thursday after two teenagers of African descent -- Bouna Traore, 15, and Zyed Benna, 17 -- were accidentally electrocuted while apparently trying to escape from police by hiding in a power substation in the Paris suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois. Officials have said police were not chasing the boys, and the Interior Ministry has released a preliminary report exonerating officers of any direct role in the deaths, according to AP. On Friday, the brother of one of the victims called for youths to "calm down and stop ransacking everything." "This is not how we are going to have our voices heard," Siyakah Traore said on RTL radio, AP reported. The latest violence has added to the pressure on Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin, who cancelled a trip to Canada this week to tackle the situation and soothe a public row between his ministers over the government's response. Vowing to restore order, de Villepin on Thursday called a series of emergency meetings with officials throughout the day, including a working lunch with Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy. "I will not accept organized gangs making the law in some neighborhoods. I will not accept having crime networks and drug trafficking profiting from disorder," Villepin said at the Senate in between emergency meetings. The situation has sparked a war of words between de Villepin and Sarkozy, his political rival ahead of 2007 presidential elections. Speaking to parliament Wednesday, de Villepin demanded punishment for lawbreakers but used calmer language than that used by Sarkozy, who has been criticized for calling the protesting youths "scum." "Let's avoid stigmatizing areas .... let's treat petty crime differently to major crime, let's fight all discrimination with firmness, and avoid confusing a disruptive minority with the vast majority of youngsters who want to integrate into society and succeed," he said. In some areas, unemployment runs as high as 20 percent -- more than twice the national average, de Villepin told lawmakers. On Wednesday, President Jacques Chirac called for calm, adding that "the absence of dialogue and an escalation of a lack of respect will lead to a dangerous situation." "Zones without law cannot exist in the republic," Chirac said. A police union official has proposed establishing a curfew and bringing in the military to help handle the rioting, while some members of the opposition Socialist Party have suggested the police should withdraw from the communities to quell the unrest.
Envoyez les avocats, les pistolets, et l'argent. La merde frappe le ventilateur. http://www.nysun.com/pf.php?id=22526 -- Intifada in France New York Sun Staff Editorial November 4, 2005 URL: http://www.nysun.com/article/22526 If President Chirac thought he was going to gain peace with the Muslim community in France by taking an appeasement line in the Iraq war, it certainly looks like he miscalculated. Today the streets of the French capital are looking more like Ramallah and less like the advanced, sophisticated, gay Paree image Monsieur Chirac likes to portray to the world, and the story, which is just starting to grip the world's attention, is full of ironies. One is tempted to suggest that Prime Minister Sharon send a note cautioning Monsieur Chirac about cycles of violence. Back in the 1990s, the French sneered at America for the Los Angeles riots. As the Chicago Sun-Times reported in 1992: "the consensus of French pundits is that something on the scale of the Los Angeles riots could not happen here, mainly because France is a more humane, less racist place with a much stronger commitment to social welfare programs." President Mitterrand, the Washington Post reported in 1992, blamed the riots on the "conservative society" that Presidents Reagan and Bush had created and said France is different because it "is the country where the level of social protection is the highest in the world." How the times have changed. Muslims in Paris's suburbs are out shooting at police and firefighters, burning cars and buildings, and throwing rocks at commuter trains. Even children are out on the streets - it was reported that a 10-year-old was arrested. The trigger for the riots was the electrocution of two teenagers last Thursday, which the rioters say came following a police chase, a charge the police deny. But even if the charge by the rioters is true, that the police are culpable in the deaths of the two youths, the fact that such an incident would spark a riot is a sign of something deeper at work - no doubt France's failure to integrate its immigrant Muslim community. It turns out that France's Muslim community lives in areas rampant with crime, poverty, and unemployment, much the fault of France's prized welfare system. There are those of us who spent part of the 1980s in Europe, supporting the idea, among others from the Reagan era, that immigration was a virtue for a country and that the racial or religious background of the immigrants did not matter. We maintain that view. But immigration into a country with a dirigiste economy is a recipe for trouble, which is why supporters of immigration into France have long warned of the need for liberalization. Part of France's problem is that it has defaulted on those measures. The lack of labor market flexibility and other socialist policies have created unemployment at nearly 10%, most of which falls among immigrants. And part stems from the fact that France's estimated 5 million Muslims, out of a population of 60 million, are led by mostly foreign radical imams. Only belatedly has the French state started taking action, pressing for clerics to be taught in France. All this is compounded by the image France projects of itself to its Muslims, which one can surmise is the reason why Muslims see rioting as the solution to any grievance. It's a barely kept secret that Mr. Chirac led the opposition to the Iraq war out of fear of how his Muslim population would react. This fear is a big part of why France portrays itself as America's counterweight and why it criticizes Israel at every turn and coddled the terrorist Yasser Arafat right up to his death. This doesn't elicit thanks from Muslim radicals in France. It turns out to project an image of weakness. Unsurprisingly when faced with some unhappiness they believe they can pressure the French state into submission. A number of observers of the French scene have looked at population trends and suggested that France is on its way to becoming a Muslim country (one that would, let it be noted, be armed with hydrogen bombs). Some react to this by suggesting a halt to immigration and even expulsion. The better approach is to impose law and order, more speedily to reform the burdensome welfare state, and start integrating the Muslim community. France could also help itself by dispatching troops to help battle the radical Islamists in Iraq, thereby sending a message to Muslims at home and abroad that France is on the side of those Muslims, the majority no doubt, who want to live in peace.
This isn't surprising. France has a long tradition of youth rebellion going back to the French Revolution. I don't think what we're seeing here has much at all to do with international affairs and I don't think Chirac's stance on the war in Iraq was driven by the thought of angry muslims but more by the thought that Muslim and non-Muslim alike in France didn't agree with going to war with Iraq.
i think its comparable to watts. you have a poor underpriviledged group living in ghettos...and eventually lil incidents make these places blow. i do find it ironic that europe which claims to be oh so free can't handle any significant minority population of its own. this 'tolerance' is easy when you only have non-white tourists around. but so much for the tolerance when its sizable minorities who perhaps don't conform to your culture. its easy to trash the US for the racial problems its had. and frankly historically the blame has been well deserved. however its simply not an easy beast to manage. and finally europe is seeing that.
That's funny. When I first saw this story online a few days back, I knew someone like yourself would mistake this for another "Islamic Jihad" epidemic and fail to realize the causes of this conflict are strictly social.
I am happy they aren't using the military to quell these riots. It's bad for the nationalistic sense - and the communist thing to do.
Your statement that "Somehow, I don't think this is Bush's fault, or about the war in iraq" seemed pretty clear to me to be a sarcastic response to those who claim that all Muslim agression in the world is in response to U.S. occupation or the war in Iraq.
"Social" as an embodiment of their social and economic plight as a frustrated minority. The fact that they're Muslims has very little to do in causing this violent reaction, I think you would agree. His sardonic response seemed to be in line with those who respond that all Muslim agression worldwide is somehow inherent to Islam itself in reply to claims by others that "all Muslim agression is due to U.S. occupation and Iraq."
It's obvious that the French need help. The U.S. should send in the marines and occupy France immediately. Americans are professionals at policing other countries.
The French have failed to assimilate an immigrant population that has been there for a full generation. I think having the minister in charge of this calling people scum, and advocation a lack of discussions on the situation has been harmful. At leas Chirac has gone to have meetings and hear the complaints. Having a mosque attacked didn't help anything either. They need to address the bigotry, cut down on the discrimination and take major efforts to help assimilate the immigrants and work on how to work together.
Having unchecked radicals of any group (in this case muslims) is never an option, it will always end up biting the government in the ass. The radical muslims (sorry again just muslims in this case it has happened with many religions before) in Brittian who talked openly of killing innocent people and overthrowing the government ended up terrorizing the city for over a month with the bomb attacks, and this is no different. You cannot have a sect of radicals regardless of their religion go around spouting hatred and death to the country they are in, especially if they are immigrants to the country. It is sad to see but this is twice now in a 3 month period where radical muslim immigrants have gotten out of control and caused severe harm to their host countries.
These are african muslim immigrants... and it is not radical to start a riot when things don't go your way? Okay... funny, but the muslims I know wouldn't start a riot and consider this to be "radical."
The conflict, as i understand it, is not a muslim/non-muslim conflict. it's about perceived discrimination / opportunity / poverty etc. So in that way...it's not because of radical islam. Why label it so?
Why not label it? If a single group is raising up against a government that welcomed it with open arms then you have a problem. Their hate for the government of France lead them to violence much like the ones in Brittian... simply because they express their violence in another ways and have different reasons doesn't mean it isn't radical. I'm not trying to pick on muslims here, but I'm not going to deny the fact that this has happened twice, in two different countries they choose to let "radical views" go unchecked regardless of the threat.
