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Flypaper: it worked

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by basso, Nov 19, 2007.

  1. basso

    basso Member
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    http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07322/834685-373.stm#

    [rquoter]It's true: Iraq is a quagmire
    But the real story is not something you have heard
    Sunday, November 18, 2007
    By Jack Kelly, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

    We're floundering in a quagmire in Iraq. Our strategy is flawed, and it's too late to change it. Our resources have been squandered, our best people killed, we're hated by the natives and our reputation around the world is circling the drain. We must withdraw.

    No, I'm not channeling Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid. I'm channeling Osama bin Laden, for whom the war in Iraq has been a catastrophe. Al-Qaida had little presence in Iraq during the regime of Saddam Hussein. But once he was toppled, al-Qaida's chieftains decided to make Iraq the central front in the global jihad against the Great Satan.

    "The most important and serious issue today for the whole world is this third world war, which the Crusader-Zionist coalition began against the Islamic nation," Osama bin Laden said in an audiotape posted on Islamic Web sites in December 2004. "It is raging in the land of the Two Rivers. The world's millstone and pillar is Baghdad, the capital of the caliphate."

    Jihadis, money and weapons were poured into Iraq. All for naught. Al-Qaida has been driven from every neighborhood in Baghdad, Maj. Gen. Joseph Fil, the U.S. commander there, said Nov. 7. This follows the expulsion of al-Qaida from two previous "capitals" of its Islamic Republic of Iraq, Ramadi and Baquba.

    Al-Qaida is evacuating populated areas and is trying to establish hideouts in the Hamrin mountains in northern Iraq, with U.S. and Iraqi security forces, and former insurgent allies who have turned on them, in hot pursuit. Forty-five al-Qaida leaders were killed or captured in October alone.

    Al-Qaida's support in the Muslim world has plummeted, partly because of the terror group's lack of success in Iraq, more because al-Qaida's attacks have mostly killed Muslim civilians.

    "Iraq has proved to be the graveyard, not just of many al-Qaida operatives, but of the organization's reputation as a defender of Islam," said StrategyPage.

    Canadian columnist David Warren speculated some years ago that enticing al-Qaida to fight there was one of the reasons why President Bush decided to invade Iraq. The administration has made so many egregious mistakes that I doubt the "flypaper" strategy was deliberate. But it has worked out that way. It may have been a mistake for the United States to go to war in Iraq. But it's pretty clear now it was a blunder for al-Qaida to have done so.

    You may not be aware of the calamities that have befallen al-Qaida, because our news media have paid scant attention to them.

    "The situation has changed so unmistakably and so swiftly that we should be reading proud headlines daily," said Ralph Peters, a retired Army lieutenant colonel. "Where are they?"

    Richard Benedetto was for many years the White House correspondent for USA Today. Now retired, he teaches journalism at American University in Washington, D.C.

    When U.S. troop deaths hit a monthly high in April, that was front-page news in most major newspapers, Mr. Benedetto noted. But when U.S. troop deaths fell in October to their lowest levels in 17 months, that news was buried on page A-14 of The Washington Post and mentioned on Page A-12 in The New York Times. (The Post-Gazette put the story on the front page.)

    "I asked the class if burying or ignoring the story indicated an anti-war bias on the part of the editors or their papers," Mr. Benedetto said. "While some students said yes ... most attributed the decision to poor news judgment. They were being generous."

    Mr. Peters suspects the paucity of news coverage from Iraq these days is because "things are going annoyingly well."

    Rich Lowry agrees. "The United States may be the only country in world history that reverse-propagandizes itself, magnifying its setbacks and ignoring its successes so that nothing can disturb what Sen. Joe Lieberman calls the 'narrative of defeat,' " he wrote in National Review.

    If what Mr. Peters, Mr. Benedetto and Mr. Lowry suspect is true, it must have pained The Associated Press to see a correspondent write Wednesday: "The trend toward better security is indisputable." It'll be interesting to see which newspapers run the AP story, and where in the paper they place it.

    "We've won the war in the real Iraq, but few people in America are familiar with anything other than its make-believe version," said the Mudville Gazette's "Greyhawk," a soldier currently serving his second tour in Iraq.
    First published on November 18, 2007 at 12:00 am[/rquoter]
     
  2. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Member

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    While I think things are going better, they still probably hate our guts over there. So while Al Qaeda may be discredited, so are we, sad to say. If only we instituted the surge strategy immediately after invading.
     
  3. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
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    Yep, basso, the news coverage all a conspiracy by the Ossama bin Laden loving mainstream media to secretly hide the overwhelming American victory in Iraq.

    Very nice.

    Make your own reality, indeed.

    The truth is that the situation has gone from total and complete cluster**** to near total and complete cluster****. And you think this is sufficent cause to crow about victory?
     
  4. basso

    basso Member
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    here's more Otto. Sorry to ruin your Thanksgiving.

    [rquoter]Something To Give Thanks For
    Good news from Iraq.
    By Christopher Hitchens
    Posted Monday, Nov. 19, 2007, at 10:47 AM ET

    A few weeks ago, in Britain's Prospect magazine, the paper's foreign editor, Bartle Bull, published a bold essay saying that the high tide of violence in Iraq was essentially behind us and that the ebb had disclosed some interesting things. First, the Iraqi people as a whole had looked into the abyss of civil war and had drawn back from the brink. Second, the majority of Sunni Arabs had realized that their involvement with al-Qaida forces was not a patriotic "insurgency" but was instead a horrific mistake and had exposed their society to the most sadistic and degraded element in the entire Muslim world. Third, the Shiite militias had also come to appreciate that they had overplayed their hand. There remained, according to Bull, an appalling level of criminal and antisocial violence, but essentially Iraq was agreed on a rough new dispensation whereby ethnic and social compromise would determine events and where subversive outside interference would not be welcomed.

    I read the article and admired its nerve, but I didn't really choose to believe it. It didn't appear to me that things had yet bottomed out, and it didn't seem believable that the essential sectarianism of the Maliki regime, illustrated so graphically by its crude execution of Saddam Hussein, could be explained away. Worst of all, the exodus of so many secular or qualified or educated Iraqis (perhaps as many as 2.5 million exiles living in Syria or Jordan or farther away) seemed to threaten a long period of social and cultural decline, a sort of Road Warrior situation in which only the parties of God would benefit.

    Keeping all this in mind, it nonetheless does begin to look as if Iraqis may in fact have started to recover command over their own destiny, and also as if America may have helped them to do so. The surge is only a part of this story. Quite obviously, if the Sunnis of Anbar Province had not of their own volition turned on the hideous forces of al-Qaida, then no amount of extra troops could have made the difference. But some combination of the two things appears to have altered the chemistry, and not just in that province, and all the reporters and soldiers I can get hold of (who include some direly skeptical people in both categories) seem agreed on one thing: The forces of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi stink in the nostrils of the Arab world, and have been—here I borrow some words of Thomas Paine—"in point of generalship … outwitted, and in point of fortitude outdone." Bin Ladenism in Iraq has been dealt a stinging defeat. Surely this is something to celebrate.

    For the rest, one has to piece together an anecdote here and a bit of patchwork there. Last weekend, the London Sunday Times had this to say under the byline of Hala Jaber:

    Most of Baghdad's street lamps went on last week for the first time in years. It was a small improvement in the quality of life, but in the twinkling light the Iraqi capital looked a little less menacing and a lot more familiar. Ahmed Chalabi, the former darling of American neoconservatives who lobbied hard for the overthrow of Saddam and later became deputy prime minister, toured the city with quiet satisfaction. … Earlier this month Nouri al-Maliki, the Iraqi prime minister, put Chalabi in charge of restoring essential services to the capital.

    Aha, you say, the Murdoch press will never give up on its favorite Iraqi stooge. All right, try this from the Los Angeles Times of Nov. 13:

    The first stop on [Chalabi's] itinerary this day is the compound of Sheik Nadeem Hatim Sultan, leader of the Tamimi tribe in the Taji region north of the capital. Until two months ago, the area was a hot spot for ethnic violence and an outpost for the insurgent group Al Qaeda in Iraq. U.S.-led troops routed insurgents under the new security push, and tribal sheiks fought to regain control of their community. Sectarian fires have cooled now and residents are eager to rebuild the area's economy, fueled by lush farmland and about 15 textile factories, and to restore its public services. Chalabi is received like royalty.

    To have savaged and discredited al-Qaida in an open fight and to have taken down a fascist Baath Party, which betrayed its pseudosecularism by forging an alliance with al-Qaida, is to have scored an impressive victory on any terms. However, the price of this achievement was often the indulgence of some excessive conduct on the part of the Shiite parties and militias. The next stage must be the reining-in of the Sadrists and the discouragement of Iranian support for such groups. Again, one hardly dares to hope, but there are some promising signs. The Maliki government is not using undue haste or sectarian demagogy in the case of Sultan Hashim Ahmed al-Tai, Saddam Hussein's former defense minister, sentenced to death but not yet executed. Many Sunni Kurds and Arabs, either opposed to the death penalty on principle or opposed in this case, seem for now to have prevailed. And "the cabinet," according to the Nov. 18 New York Times, "has sent legislation to the Parliament softening the de-Baathification law that had prevented former Baathists' working in government jobs." I wonder how many people, reading that ordinary sentence about "the cabinet" and "the Parliament," as reported also in independent Iraqi media, have any idea what it means when compared with the insane proceedings of the totalitarian abattoir state that was Iraq until 2003.

    As I began by saying, I am not at all certain that any of this apparently good news is really genuine or will be really lasting. However, I am quite sure both that it could be true and that it would be wonderful if it were to be true. What worries me about the reaction of liberals and Democrats is not the skepticism, which is pardonable, but the dank and sinister impression they give that the worse the tidings, the better they would be pleased. The latter mentality isn't pardonable and ought not to be pardoned, either.
    Christopher Hitchens is a columnist for Vanity Fair and the author of God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything.[/rquoter]
     
  5. danny317

    danny317 Member

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    the situation in iraq seems to be improving no doubt.

    but i have a strange feeling that the different factions are just getting along so that we can say we achieved victory and withdraw.

    then, as soon as we leave, these different factions will probably start killing each other again...

    i hope this isnt what will happen but if i were al sadr or one of the leaders of the various factions, id know i cant win a civil war while the US is still there. so id just lay low, and arm/train my forces until the time is right to completely wipe out the enemy factions through ethnic cleansing and gain total control of the country... (kinda like the movie "blood in blood out" where the mexican mafia uses the bga to wipe out the av. then they turn on the bga and gain total control)
     
  6. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
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    You couldn't ruin my thanksgiving on this issue. You've lost all credibility with your millions of other premature or outright false attempts to claim victory. You've lost all ability to be taken seriously. Welcome to the grave that you dug for yourself. But feel free to continue blaming those damn libpig America haters.

    But hey, if you keep spamming with more lengthy articles, long on opinion and short on actual facts, perhaps you might change someone's mind. :rolleyes: As long as we're tossing around stories for other people to read, I've got something here that you might benefit from taking a look at.
     
  7. basso

    basso Member
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    bats, is that you?
     
  8. basso

    basso Member
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    even the times is noticing!

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/20/w...r=permalink&exprod=permalink&pagewanted=print

    [rquoter]Baghdad Starts to Exhale as Security Improves
    By DAMIEN CAVE and ALISSA J. RUBIN

    BAGHDAD, Nov. 19 — Five months ago, Suhaila al-Aasan lived in an oxygen tank factory with her husband and two sons, convinced that they would never go back to their apartment in Dora, a middle-class neighborhood in southern Baghdad.

    Today she is home again, cooking by a sunlit window, sleeping beneath her favorite wedding picture. And yet, she and her family are remarkably alone. The half-dozen other apartments in her building echo with emptiness and, on most days, Iraqi soldiers are the only neighbors she sees.

    “I feel happy,” she said, standing in her bedroom, between a flowered bedspread and a bullet hole in the wall. “But my happiness is not complete. We need more people to come back. We need more people to feel safe.”

    Mrs. Aasan, 45, a Shiite librarian with an easy laugh, is living at the far end of Baghdad’s tentative recovery. She is one of many Iraqis who in recent weeks have begun to test where they can go and what they can do when fear no longer controls their every move.

    The security improvements in most neighborhoods are real. Days now pass without a car bomb, after a high of 44 in the city in February. The number of bodies appearing on Baghdad’s streets has plummeted to about 5 a day, from as many as 35 eight months ago, and suicide bombings across Iraq fell to 16 in October, half the number of last summer and down sharply from a recent peak of 59 in March, the American military says.

    As a result, for the first time in nearly two years, people are moving with freedom around much of this city. In more than 50 interviews across Baghdad, it became clear that while there were still no-go zones, more Iraqis now drive between Sunni and Shiite areas for work, shopping or school, a few even after dark. In the most stable neighborhoods of Baghdad, some secular women are also dressing as they wish. Wedding bands are playing in public again, and at a handful of once shuttered liquor stores customers now line up outside in a collective rebuke to religious vigilantes from the Shiite Mahdi Army.

    Iraqis are clearly surprised and relieved to see commerce and movement finally increase, five months after an extra 30,000 American troops arrived in the country. But the depth and sustainability of the changes remain open to question.

    By one revealing measure of security — whether people who fled their home have returned — the gains are still limited. About 20,000 Iraqis have gone back to their Baghdad homes, a fraction of the more than 4 million who fled nationwide, and the 1.4 million people in Baghdad who are still internally displaced, according to a recent Iraqi Red Crescent Society survey.

    Iraqis sound uncertain about the future, but defiantly optimistic. Many Baghdad residents seem to be willing themselves to normalcy, ignoring risks and suppressing fears to reclaim their lives. Pushing past boundaries of sect and neighborhood, they said they were often pleasantly surprised and kept going; in other instances, traumatic memories or a dark look from a stranger were enough to tug them back behind closed doors.

    Mrs. Aasan’s experience, as a member of the brave minority of Iraqis who have returned home, shows both the extent of the improvements and their limits.

    She works at an oasis of calm: a small library in eastern Baghdad, where on several recent afternoons, about a dozen children bounced through the rooms, reading, laughing, learning English and playing music on a Yamaha keyboard.

    Brightly colored artwork hangs on the walls: images of gardens, green and lush; Iraqi soldiers smiling; and Arabs holding hands with Kurds.

    It is all deliberately idyllic. Mrs. Aasan and the other two women at the library have banned violent images, guiding the children toward portraits of hope. The children are also not allowed to discuss the violence they have witnessed.

    “Our aim is to fight terrorism,” Mrs. Aasan said. “We want them to overcome their personal experiences.”

    The library closed last year because parents would not let their children out of sight. Now, most of the children walk on their own from homes nearby — another sign of the city’s improved ease of movement.

    But there are scars in the voice of a ponytailed little girl who said she had less time for fun since her father was incapacitated by a bomb. (“We try to make him feel better and feel less pain,” she said.) And pain still lingers in the silence of Mrs. Aasan’s 10-year-old son, Abather, who accompanies her wherever she goes.

    One day five months ago, when they still lived in Dora, Mrs. Aasan sent Abather to get water from a tank below their apartment. Delaying as boys will do, he followed his soccer ball into the street, where he discovered two dead bodies with their eyeballs torn out. It was not the first corpse he had seen, but for Mrs. Aasan that was enough. “I grabbed him, we got in the car and we drove away,” she said.

    After they heard on an Iraqi news program that her section of Dora had improved, she and her husband explored a potential return. They visited and found little damage, except for a bullet hole in their microwave.

    Two weeks ago, they moved back to the neighborhood where they had lived since 2003.

    “It’s just a rental,” Mrs. Aasan said, as if embarrassed at her connection to such a humble place. “But after all, it’s home.”

    In interviews, she and her husband said they felt emboldened by the decline in violence citywide and the visible presence of Iraqi soldiers at a checkpoint a few blocks away.

    Still, it was a brave decision, one her immediate neighbors have not yet felt bold enough to make. Mrs. Aasan’s portion of Dora still looks as desolate as a condemned tenement. The trunk of a palm tree covers a section of road where Sunni gunmen once dumped a severed head, and about 200 yards to the right of her building concrete Jersey barriers block a section of homes believed to be booby-trapped with explosives.

    “On this street,” she said, standing on her balcony, “many of my neighbors lost relatives.” Then she rushed inside.

    Her husband, Fadhel A. Yassen, 49, explained that they had seen several friends killed while they sat outside in the past. He insisted that being back in the apartment was “a victory over fear, a victory over terrorism.”

    Yet the achievement remains rare. Many Iraqis say they would still rather leave the country than go home. In Baghdad there are far more families like the Nidhals. The father, who would only identify himself as Abu Nebras (father of Nebras), is Sunni; Hanan, his wife, is a Shiite from Najaf, the center of Shiite religious learning in Iraq. They lived for 17 years in Ghazaliya in western Baghdad until four gunmen from Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, the homegrown Sunni extremist group that American intelligence agencies say is led by foreigners, showed up at his door last December.

    “My sons were armed and they went away but after that, we knew we had only a few hours,” Abu Nebras said. “We were displaced because I was secular and Al Qaeda didn’t like that.”

    They took refuge in the middle-class Palestine Street area in the northeastern part of Baghdad, a relatively stable enclave with an atmosphere of tolerance for their mixed marriage. Now with the situation improving across the city, the Nidhal family longs to return to their former home, but they have no idea when, or if, it will be possible.

    Another family now lives in their house — the situation faced by about a third of all displaced Iraqis, according to the International Organization for Migration — and it is not clear whether the fragile peace will last. Abu Nebras tested the waters recently, going back to talk with neighbors on his old street for the first time.

    He said the Shiites in the northern part of Ghazaliya had told him that the American military’s payments to local Sunni volunteers in the southern, Sunni part of the neighborhood amounted to arming one side.

    The Americans describe the volunteers as heroes, part of a larger nationwide campaign known as the Sunni Awakening. But Abu Nebras said he did not trust them. “Some of the Awakening members are just Al Qaeda who have joined them,” he said. “I know them from before.”

    With the additional American troops scheduled to depart, the Nidhal family said, Baghdad would be truly safe only when the Iraqi forces were mixed with Sunnis and Shiites operating checkpoints side by side — otherwise the city would remain a patchwork of Sunni and Shiite enclaves. “The police, the army, it has to be Sunni next to Shiite next to Sunni next to Shiite,” Abu Nebras said.

    They and other Iraqis also said the government must aggressively help people return to their homes, perhaps by supervising returns block by block. The Nidhal family said they feared the displaced Sunnis in their neighborhood who were furious that Shiites chased them from their houses. “They are so angry, they will kill anyone,” Abu Nebras said.

    For now, though, they are trying to enjoy what may be only a temporary respite from violence. One of their sons recently returned to his veterinary studies at a university in Baghdad, and their daughter will start college this winter.

    Laughter is also more common now in the Nidhal household — even on once upsetting subjects. At midday, Hanan’s sister, who teaches in a local high school, came home and threw up her hands in exasperation. She had asked her Islamic studies class to bring in something that showed an aspect of Islamic culture. “Two boys told me, ‘I’m going to bring in a portrait of Moktada al-Sadr,’” she said.

    She shook her head and chuckled. Mr. Sadr is an anti-American cleric whose militia, the Mahdi Army, has been accused of carrying out much of the displacement and killings of Sunnis in Baghdad. They can joke because they no longer fear that the violence will engulf them.

    In longer interviews across Baghdad, the pattern was repeated. Iraqis acknowledged how far their country still needed to go before a return to normalcy, but they also expressed amazement at even the most embryonic signs of recovery.

    Mrs. Aasan said she was thrilled and relieved just a few days ago, when her college-aged son got stuck at work after dark and his father managed to pick him up and drive home without being killed.

    “Before, when we lived in Dora, after 4 p.m., I wouldn’t let anyone out of the house,” she said.

    “They drove back to Dora at 8!” she added, glancing at her husband, who beamed, chest out, like a mountaineer who had scaled Mount Everest. “We really felt that it was a big difference.”
    [/rquoter]
     
  9. bigtexxx

    bigtexxx Member

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    The libs are green with envy about the recent press surrounding America's victories in Iraq. Put that together with the fact that Bush has kept us from being attacked on our home soil since 9/11, and you have downright frustrated liberals.
     
  10. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"
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    The New Yorker also carried an interesting feature on the shift, especially in Sunni communities. It had some positive news but featured a lot of balance concerning some of the provinces still being out of control.
     
  11. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

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    This is the problem though with the flypaper / roach motel strategy is that as the article notes there wasn't Al Qaeda in Iraq before hand so we decide to make Iraq the battleground. Now how is that helping the Iraqis that we turn their country into our battleground?
     
  12. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

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    That very well could be the case. While the surge has improved security Petraus has said it is not sustainable and we've already started the withdrawl. The problem with Iraq since the fall of Saddam has primarily been political as sectarian differences drove or in Al Qaeda's case were exploited to keep the violence going. Until the Iraqis can come to political settlement themselves any increased security is likely to be temporary.
     
  13. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

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    Engage in specious reasoning often?

    In 1999 there hadn't been an attack on US soil by Al Qaeda for 6 years so were you saying then that Clinton's strategy was working?
     
  14. bigtexxx

    bigtexxx Member

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    LOL If you think Al Qaeda hasn't tried to step up its efforts and attack us after we humiliated them in Afghanistan (and now Iraq), you haven't been paying attention. Maybe I shouldn't be surprised.
     
  15. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet

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    I'll sell someone my magic rock. It prevents tiger attacks. I have not been attacked by a single tiger since I found it.
     
  16. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

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    How do you know? What were they doing in the time period between the first WTC bombing and 911? I'm sure if you ask the people in London, Madrid, Bali, Jakarta and a few other places they will let you know that Al Qaeda has been pretty active. Or do you just discount those because they aren't happening on US soil?
     
    #16 rocketsjudoka, Nov 20, 2007
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2007
  17. TECH

    TECH Member

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    Do you think the left-wing media would rather highlight the Bush "mistakes", and keep quiet about progress, or simply cover the good WITH the bad, and risk losing some mud to sling on Bush and the Republican party? After all, there is a presidential election looming.

    Our media doesn't take into account what middle eastern people think of our coverage. Our coverage is simply, and sadly, spewed for a political end, here in the USA.
     
  18. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
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    You are right. The mainstream liberal pinko media clearly is failing to report the good with the bad. America hating libpigs.
     
  19. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    The funny part of this triumphalism is to see how far the bar has been lowered.

    [​IMG]

    Anyway, I've said numerous times - I'm willing to agree that this is a thrilling victory - whatever, just bring the f-king troops home plz tia
     
  20. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    Hmmm. Bad news about the good news...

    And how's the political stuff working? Not so well apparently... we're now reduced to trumpeting low-level stuff so we can persuade people we're making progress...
     

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