That's exactly my point. Though it may be seen as a "republican strength", I can't remember it ever being a Bush strength (post 9-11 days aside)
18 holes. I'll give you one stroke per side. If I win I get to invade Iran. If you win you get to keep abortion on demand, okay? How's that for desire?
I watched all of the debate, and some of the post-debate NBC yada-yada, before coming over here to see what was up. I'm surprised some of you were doing this like chat during a game. Bush reminded me of Johnny Carson tonight, when he was pissed at a guest, knew he was on national TV, trying to hold in his frustration and anger, and would sit there, sort of beady-eyed and blinking, pursing his lips... very much like Bush did tonight through most of the time he was shown on split screen with Kerry speaking. Now, some of you might not remember Carson, but the ones who watched him for years will know what I'm talking about. I thought Bush kept glancing over, looking for the teleprompter, which, of course, wasn't there. He appeared very ill at ease. He kept repeated the same phrases over and over, throughout the debate. After about 35 minutes or so, I thought Bush began to give an impression of thinking, "There's almost another hour of this??" He had moments when he seemed to get a grip on his thoughts later in the debate, and came across in a more coherent way, but they were few and far between. Frankly, I was surprised at how poorly Bush did. When Kerry was speaking, putting aside my Carson comment (sorry, I'm old enough to remember Jack Paar, and when Carson took over), Bush really looked uncomfortable, fidgeted, pursed his lips... all those things you are taught in debate not to do. I assumed he would have been drilled on that by his team, and I'm sure he was, but he seemed to forget it. Kerry? Well, frankly, I was surprised at how well Kerry did. He came across as very composed, with a good grasp of the issues discussed. He didn't repeat the same phrases over and over again. That's not to say he didn't repeat anything he said, but that when he did repeat something, it was for a purpose and affect. His opponent appeared to repeat himself constantly because he couldn't think of what to say... a huge difference. Kerry, when Bush was speaking, was constantly taking notes and looking engaged, concentrated and thinking. Now, Kerry could have been scribbling, "Bush is an idiot" over and over, how can we know? But it looked good on camera, and a stark contrast to Bush's demeanor. Kerry gave good answers to most of the questions. He responded to what Bush said, when given the chance. And speaking of his chances to respond... I thought the debate went much better than I had expected, given the format. Jim Lehrer deserves the credit for that. He asked excellent questions of both candidates, and handled the event very well. I watched the debate on NBC, figuring that it would give me a view that would be perceived, by folks here, as the most unbiased of the networks. Rather and CBS have had their scandal recently, and ABC's Peter Jennings is Canadian. 'Nuff said, right? So I was shocked at one bit of NBC's post debate coverage. They had picked six independent voters, carefully screened, who hadn't made up their minds as to who they would vote for November 2nd. When asked who had won the debate, they all said Kerry. They didn't say they had all made up their minds as to who they would vote for, (my wife joked that they wanted to be invited back for their takes on the next two-) but they all thought Kerry won this one. I'll say this, if Kerry doesn't get a decent bounce from the debate, assuming, of course, that American voters watched it, then he is in serious trouble. I think Kerry will get some of those sitting on the fence, or thinking of staying home instead of voting. I look for things to tighten up considerably after tonight. Those who are ready for a change, but needed more from Kerry to convince them that he's worthy of being elected to the Nation's highest office, got a lot of what they were looking for tonight. I think Kerry helped himself tremendously. It wasn't a "slam dunk," and there are two more debates, along with a month of brutal campaigning left to go, but Kerry did what he needed to do tonight. He showed himself as a clear alternative to Bush and, on this night at least, a much more informed and attractive alternative. I'm encouraged.
Did you just call Kerry right of Bush? Kerry mentioned in the debate that we should have followed through on Fallujah
I know it's useless convincing you but I did not see Bush nailing Kerry on anything. 1) On Korea, Kerry favors bi-lateral talk, Bush wants 6 nations in it. So what? Noone in this whole world knows what is better. Even if Bush was right, he didn't not lay down any argument for it. All he said was Kerry was wrong, several times, not a single reason why. If Kerry flip flops because he wants multi-nation coalition in Iraq then does that also mean Bush flip flops because he went into Iraq with practically no coalition either? 2) How did Bush score on the global test for preemption strike? If anything Kerry scored well on it. He spelled out several criteria, I don't remember the exact words, but one was to make sure the reason for going in, like we're being attacked, second, was a world wide coalition, consensus.
I'm surprised by those who thought it was even close. But it's only the undecided voters that I'm interested in hearing from/about. Aside from the flip-flop bit that Bush repeated to his detriment, I was surprised by the focus of some of his responses. A lot of them seemed geared to conservative voters who I would figure he has in the bag. Kerry on the other hand, distinctly seemed to be gearing his answers to conservate/moderate voters, tactically more sensible. I was also surprised by the number of times Bush used qualifers in his speech. "I think," "I hope." I personally like people who use qualifiers, but I thought it made Bush look weak when he needed to convey confidence. I agree Kerry didn't have a slam dunk, but I thought he did a fairly good job of presenting himself as a legit alternative. Bush just seemed to do a poor job of staying composed. I had visions of Ross Perot from the Gore/Perot NAFTA debate on Larry King Live in 1992/1993.
The debate format was good. I thought Bush started out ok, but then he started to really struggle. While Kerry seemed engaged and calm, Bush got a bit testy and had trouble maintaining discipline with the format. Bush made the same kinds of mistakes that Gore did in the Sigh-Off with him in 2000. Bush frankly looked out of his depth a number of times and he got nailed to the wall on North Korea. Kerry demonstrated pretty clearly that Bush has been asleep at the wheel there and in Iran and Bush looked befuddled and could only offer seem rather weak platitudes in response. I think most people know that Bush is not at his best when speaking off script, but I think that the main result of this debate is that Kerry got himself back into the ballgame. He was concise and direct and you could actually imagine him as president after this performance. Maybe Kerry loses by 1% rather than 8% in November
You can win a debate yet have little impact on voters. Everyone knows that Bush gives Lee Brown a run for his money when it comes to public speaking. I just don't expect a swing either way to be completely honest.
I caught that too. He seems to be on the defensive a lot. He was close to admit things went very wrong when he said he hope it'd worked out better. I think some of the Rep. on this board would have done a better job spinning it!
I just watched the whole thing on ReplayTV and, though I admit I am a biased witness, Kerry exceeded my expectations tonight. I have heard him speak extemporaneously and, as documented on The Daily Show (which I am about to go watch), he can be VERY long winded and too caught up by minutae to get across a clear message. Tonight, he stayed on target, on task, and with a couple of notable exceptions, did not get too far onto the details to distract from the message he was trying to put out. As far as NK, I heard Kerry say that he DID want the Chinese and others involved with talks, but that we had to open up the other avenues we had (until Bush pulled them out), namely the weapons inspectors and video surveillance. Bush claimed over and over again that opening talks with NK would cause the existing coalition to "unravel," but I just don't see how the US opening talks with NK will cause the other countries at the table to up and leave. Admittedly, I have not kept up with news about said talks, but if anyone has anything to share that would bolster Bush's claims, I would love to see it. The one major flub that I think Kerry had was in his rambling around the question of consistency. He had the one zinger about consistency in the face of mistakes, but I didn't like his answer to that question. The major theme for Bush seemed to be that Kerry changed positions and I thought Kerry did a very good job of communicating HIS consistency on this issue, consistency that I have talked about at length on this board. Every time I blinked, Bush was accusing Kerry of changing positions and I think that was 100% the wrong tactic to attempt. The major theme for Kerry was that we can win the war in Iraq, but we just can't do it with Bush at the helm. I thought he did an excellent job of communicating that and was quite impressed by his repeated, forceful statements that we will NOT lose the war in Iraq. We will get the job done and when the missions is actually accomplished, we will bring ALL the boys home. Overall, I think Kerry will get a nice bounce from independants after this debate, though the people who were completely torn before tonight will probably continue to reserve judgement for the upcoming contests. I agree that GWB had perhaps his best opportunity tonight to cripple the Kerry campaign and I don't think he got the job done. Kerry was not (and never will be) the kind of animated debater that Reagan and Clinton were, but he scored well tonight, and may well have turned the tide that has been rising since the RNC. I agree that SNL could have a field day with this and further agree that it could be by impersonating or by just showing clips. EDIT: I also agree that Kerry's Vietnam references were probably to his detriment.
