Hey Subatomic! Who was Brubeck's drummer? That muther was bad - talk about feel. Dudes **** is so hard to reproduce that it is ridiculous. My band tried to do a take five cover with 2 jazz guitars instead of piano and sax but our drummer who is a former roadie for the Eagles could not get the feel for the opening drum line and it just wound up sounding so forced that we had to pull it from our set.
Are YOU kidding? Ok, Elvis is obviously biased towards Pete Thomas and I might question the Supergrass drummer, but Grohl is a tremendous drummer who practically invented alt.rock drumming. Watts is not just a fantastic in-the-pocket rock drummer, but an unreal jazz player. Al Jackson Jr. may be the greatest groove drummer of all time and the Stax/Muscle Shoals musicians influenced everyone that came after. Lars Ulrich is good at what he does, but he is NOT a great drummer overall. He is innovative because the band was innovative, but there are plenty of guys out there who can do what he has done and do it better. On Neil Peart, ditto what subtomic said. Peart is a great chops player and has really defined the progressive rock style of drumming, but put him in any other situation (and I've seen him in several others) and he looks as out of place as the Statue of Liberty in the Persian Gulf. As sub said, he is a VERY square player. Groove is probably not really in his vocabulary. That doesn't make him a bad drummer. Far from it. The aforementioned Ulrich and guys like Tommy Lee are mostly heavy metal guys who wouldn't know subtle if it slapped them in the face, but they are good at what they do. Neil is a tremendous drummer, but, and he'll even tell you this, line him up against some of the other rock/session/jazz drummers listed in this thread and he'd look pretty silly. In fact, I saw that in a video once with him Greg Bissonette and Dennis Chambers and he looked REALLY stiff and out of place. Put him on stage with Rush and he's in his element. Anywhere else and he just looks awkward.
What you say about Peart could be said about most any drummer who made their name with a Rock band. Not many drummers are going to look good next to Bissonette. I am not really a huge Peart fan but I can say - this guy has great syncopation. But the title of this thread is Favorite Rock Drummers and that is why I picked Lars. If it came down to best all around percussionist it would have to go to someone like Steve Gadd or some brazilian in one of those hundred man drum teams. Even Dave Grohl has said that he is not a great drummer. But he is an awesome musician and songwriter. Lets not even mention Tommy Lee in a thread about drummers. If you want to talk about guys with cool cribs, then hell yeah. But I understand what Subatomic was getting at with his whole feel thing. It is definitely equally important to technique and a guy like Charlie Watts shouldn't be judged on how complicated his grooves are. But I think if you put Watts up next to Bissonette Watts would just sit there with his jaw on the floor saying "yeah, I'll just play the triangle while you stay on the set"
Good points in general. Neil is OK with synchopation, but his real skill is combining a wide range of rhythmic patters into a single groove. Synchopation is part of that, but Latin drummers and percussionists are so much better at that, it is almost unfair to compare. What Neil does could maybe better be described as synthesis. I was a big Rush fan as a teen because of Geddy (being a bass player, that makes sense), but hearing different music made me less of a fan over time. As for Watts and Bissonette, I'll have to disagree there. Bissonette cannot hold a candle to the straight swing Watts is able to play in his jazz ensemble. I've seen them both play bop and Watts is WAY ahead of Bissonette in that category.
I've got to break in here. That is the standard reply that drummers give who know about the many under-appreciated great drummers out there to people who say Neil Peart is God. I totally understand the sentiment! But, while there are many great drummers (probably better at what they do then Neil), Neil is not chopped liver! I'm sorry, but there is a LOT of feeling in Peart's playing and in Rush's music. If it weren't so, then he (and they) wouldn't have influenced so many young musicians - it's not just about their chops. Rush have got chops but they are not the <i>most</i> proficient players out there. They are popular because, IMO, they do the best job of combining melodic songwriting with interesting parts. Granted their music is polorizing - you love it or you hate it, but enough people (common people - not musicians) loved it enough to help them sell over 35 million records. The Steve Morse band and Bela Fleck are about chops - they don't have much emotion in their music (and I love their music) compared to Rush. (BTW, if you disagree with that statement and think Bela or Steve's music is more emotional you've just demonstrated how subjective that whole subject is!) Also, Peart, IMO, is great, not because of his chops (which are good), but because he writes drums parts that are very fun to listen to. Why do you think so many people air-drum at Rush shows? As far as not pushing the music forward, remember Peart has to write drum parts to the music that's presented him. Rush's music traditionally has not been very straight forward. The new album, however, grooves pretty well in places. He's not a great jazz drummer but he's certainly one of the best rock drummers ever. Plus, at least he tries jazz. He aparently loves big-band music which is why he did that Buddy Rich tribute. It really takes guts for a person of his stature to put his reputation as a drummer on the line by attempting to play music that is very foreign to what he does. So many professional musicians are so image conscious that they would never take a chance like that.
111chase111: I don't think anyone thinks Neil isn't good or Rush isn't interesting or innovate. They are very good at what they do. But, to place him in the same category as some of the other musicians here isn't really fair to him. And, while it is brave and admirable of him to try his hand at swing, that doesn't make him good at it. On the other hand, there are guys out there who can switch fairly easily from one style to another. Neil is not one of those guys but he doesn't have to be. His playing stands on its own as innovative and influential to many, particularly those who play progressive music. He is a supreme talent but that does not remove the fact that he has limitiations as a player.
I'm not saying that people don't think Neil is good or that he doesn't have limitations (I hope I made that clear in my post). I'm just arguing against the "he's got no feel" argument. You may not think he's got feeling but there are plenty people who do. Why does he do the swing thing? Just because he wants to. And if he doesn't at least try, he won't get better at it. The people who can switch probably have spent more time working at it then Neil has (after all, I would imagine that he's pretty busy these days).
Say what you will about my choices of drummers, LeGrouper, but dating a *Rush* groupie?! Woah! Geddy Lee is pretty hot, though.
I know you're going to say that I am too, but... he's a f*cking *badass*. Listen to 'No Action', 'Lipstick Vogue' (This Year's Model) and 'New Lace Sleeves' (Trust) in a row, and tell me he's not an objectively *great* drummer. I can't see how you could deny that, even if you don't enjoy the way he uses a plethora of hooky little fills (which happens to be my favourite drumming style). Bruce Thomas, for that matter, is an *amazing* bassist. The Attractions really don't get props from anyone, they're horribly underrated. I'll stand by that until the day I die (or until they get 'rediscovered'). So, um, hmph.
Going to a Rush show was all about the Peart solo. You knew it was coming and it blew you away everytime.
I wonder how much of Rush's music have you honestly listened to..From your comments, I would assume only the early stuff. The playin style you describe is basically what rock drummers are expected to do. If they played jazz style, it wouldn't be a rock band..Dont get me wrong, I love jazz/fusion music..but I couldn't name any of the drummers if you paid me. So I dont..Rock is what I know..therefor its what I talk about.. While he may have been that way towards the beginning, some of their later stuff that didnt make it close to the radio had much more elaborate song-writing and playin from all three of em.
I love Costello. It's not that I don't like him as a musician or like the way the songs are arranged. It's just that, empirically speaking, he's a decent rock drummer. That doesn't mean he isn't good at what he does. To me, there are four classes of rock players. 1. Players who have their own thing as a player and the bands sort of fit to them. 2. Players who stylistically fit their GENRE and they may be better than anyone else in that genre but who aren't particularly adept beyond that. 3. Guys who can play just about everything. 4. Guys who aren't empirically great but who are strong players for their gig. An example of 1 would be Charlie Watts. He has his thing. That's all he really does. You don't hire him for a hard rock session. He can play a couple of different styles of music but you know it's him. Number 2 would be reflective of guys like Neil Peart of Lars Ulrich. They are great for what they do - really the top of their game and they could probably play with anyone in that genre of music - but you won't find them playing jazz. Number 3 would fit session musicians. They can cover just about anything and are usually chop-monsters. Number 4 is like the guy from the Attractions or Liberty DeVito who played with Billy Joel. Neither are just unreal players chops-wise. They'll even admit that (I've met Liberty and he knows full well that fact). But they just rock. In fact, most BAND drummers in rock music fit this. If there is a band and they have a drummer, chances are the guy is like this. I have great respect for all four. They all do their own thing and it works. But there is a difference between being great simply as a drummer where you can stand on your own and being great within the confines of a particular band.
He has feel for what he does. Does that make him any less stiff? Nope. He just has his own thing. Granted, his own thing has been really successful and he is recognized as one of the best ever to sit behind a kit and that is well-deserved. It's just when you think of a "feel" drummer, you don't really think of guys like Neil. He has great feel for his own brand of music, but that is different from having great feel in general.
Jeff, respectfully, you're talking out of your ass about Pete Thomas here. I mean, even using the terms by which you rank drummers (which I don't necessarily agree with), I have these problems with your argument. 1) If you maintain that Pete Thomas is number four, 'not empirically great but a strong player for his gig', why does he do so much session work outside of the Attractions? Here's an *incomplete* list of who he's worked with since the 70s, many of them more than once: Nick Lowe, The Waterboys, John Wesley Harding, Graham Parker, Dream Academy, Los Lobos, Matthew Sweet, Squeeze, Wendy James, Tasmin Archer, John Paul Jones, Richard Thompson, Chris Spedding, Suzanne Vega, Dave Dobbyn (yay!), Sheryl Crow, Mitchell Froom, Neil Finn, Vonda Shepard, Ron Sexsmith, The Corrs, Randy Newman, Joan Osbourne, Tracy Bonham, Elliott Smith, Pearl Jam, Vanessa Paradis, Billie F*cking *Myers*, for crying out loud, Buddy Guy, Rufus Wainwright, The Proclaimers, and Bonnie Raitt - plus, I'm not even listing an array of Spanish albums and a bunch of artists I've never heard of... to me, this does not sound like a drummer who is not empirically great or should only be limited to his gig with the Attractions, since these artists encompass a very wide range of musical styles. (Remember, he's been doing albums with Costello more or less consistently throughout this entire 25 year period. Dude *works*.) 2) Tangentially to my first point, but still working on your 'number four type drummer' assumption: during Costello's career he has done several 'theme' albums which were not at all punk or new wave: to wit, Get Happy!!, which is basically a Stax album on blow; Almost Blue, an album of *country* songs; Imperial Bedroom, a lush, orchestrated uberpop masterpiece; Punch the Clock, which was eighties pop par excellence; additionally, he and the Attractions have covered classic American songbook tunes like 'My Funny Valentine' or 'Love for Sale'; I mean, Costello is well-known for driving people nuts with the way he'll experiment wildly from album to album - mostly, I add pointedly, *with* Pete Thomas. Does this sound like a guy who's 'good within the limits of his gig'? Look at Costello's oeuvre, Jeff. There *are* no limits to his gig. 3) If we're going to use your four drummer types, I'm arguing that Pete is not only number four, but number three (see my argument above), plus, if anyone will actually give the dude props, he can *easily* be drummer type number one. Listen to the first Costello album without the Attractions, My Aim is True (the backing band is Clover, who later became Huey Lewis's band The News, weirdly). Listen to the first album *with* the Attractions, This Year's Model. Are you telling me that Pete (and the band at large) aren't adding something utterly invaluable to Costello at that point? Pete's style is *obvious* from the get-go; the fact that he's not exactly charismatic personally might undercut him a bit, but otherwise... I reiterate: the Attractions are one of the best backing bands of all time, period (or full stop, as we say down here). In other words, Jeff, if you compare Pete to f*cking *Liberty DeVito* again, I'm likely to get a tad peeved. And I *like* Billy Joel.
