As I said, it would be free, highly chaotic, probably rampant with the "strong" taking advantage of the "weak," but free. Look around at all the volunteer fire and ambulance departments and community police in unincorporated areas.
Let's call it health care costs and services then. It is a very diverse country. 20% of our country has French as a mother tongue. About 20% of our population is governed by a civil code instead of common law. There are about 10 different ethnic groups in Calgary that each make up about 5% of the population or more. What kinds of diversity are you referring to? With respect to health care costs, our size and relatively small population are a big negative, because it's hard to provide good health care in some of the more remote areas with small population bases. The more people you have closer together the cheaper it is to provide health care for them.
I wouldn't call that free. Why do you call that free? Volunteer fire departments and community police aren't private. They're public, but we also have private ambulance services in many places that aren't covered by our government plan. I suppose the rationale for that is that it's often not needed and if it was included people would call an ambulance in many cases where it wasn't needed. It's a contentious issue, however.
Dank je for the thread, arno_ed. Hup Holland! (I gave it a shot... I used to know a little Dutch, but it's been a long time!)
I don't disagree. I'm not part of the system so I wasn't well cared for. I mean, I wasn't turned away or anything but they wouldn't do my surgery, forcing me to fly 12 hours or whatever with a swollen and painful broken ankle and foot. I had American insurance but they wouldn't take it. And they refused to do my surgery because I wouldn't pay cash. It was shocking and disappointing to me but, in retrospect, I don't blame the system. It just wasn't meant to work for me. The citizens in the hospital I was in were happy with their care though. Well, all but one who had major surgery, was in terrible pain and wasn't getting appropriate medication for it. (The same was true for me.) But, apart from an apparent disbelief in pain medication (people told me this was true of the Dutch) the care seemed very good for citizens. I'm sure it's a great system for them. I guess I should have known somehow to have traveler's insurance. I'd never even heard of it. I thought my insurance would have been enough. Live and learn, I guess. But, while I'd much prefer single payer, I think the Dutch system is far superior to what we have now.
Do you have some evidence to back up this claim? Is there some country you can point to where health insurance is provided by businesses competing in a completely free, unregulated market? If so, please provide some statistics on cost and effectiveness.
I think the Dutch have much to offer. I liked the menus in their coffee houses, even though I'm not into that. The Dutch ,and I know for sure the Germans, aside from their great health care system, don't throw away large percentages of their population. For instance they don't have school hours such that kids of working parents go back to apt complexes unsupervised to be put on a fast track to later be warehoused in a large prison-industrial complex like we do.
They also show you can have liberal social values and a free market, deregulated, capitalist economy. Also, that a private healthcare system does work, and that a public option is not necessary. Even though the left in the US is arguing that capitalism and deregulation failed during the crisis, that is not the conversation in Europe. You brought up Germany, they actually tilted to the right in the last election. A coalition that supported tax cuts and free markets won.
I'll never forget visiting my wife's great-aunt, who had recently moved to a "home for the elderly." This was a high-rise apartment building with a really cool aviary in the lobby. There was space in her room for some of her furniture, she had her own bath, the food was excellent. In other words, it was nothing like your typical "home" here in the States. This was in Groningen, a city in the north of the Netherlands. I was very impressed there, as I've been impressed traveling around the country during the several trips I've made. The more you delve into the Netherlands, the more impressive it is, IMO. Sure, it's not perfect, but what country can make that claim?
yeah, cdu and fdp won the election but they didn't win because people wanted more free markets. in fact the opposite is true. our social democratic party (spd) lost a huge amount of voters because the voters thought the politics of the spd which was in charge for the last 11 years wasn't social enough. a lot of people just wanted change. so the parties that weren't in charge for over 10 years and promised tax cuts or more social politics gained the most votes. all the other parties lost a lot of votes. it's a little paradox. while the results of our election might suggest otherwise it's pretty clear that the people in germany really wanted more social politics and not more free markets.
I find it difficult to say what the shortcomings are of the Dutch plan. It is the only plan I know, and as far as I can see it works pretty good. Of course there are some discussions about the waiting lists of medical treatments. But I think that is mostly a result of lack of doctors / donors etc. and not a shortcoming of the Dutch plan. I think besides the waiting lists most discussion is about that it is a difficult system to understand. Most people do not like it that they have to search for the cheapest/best Insurance company, and are afraid that they will pay to much or not get the insurance they want. I have a standard insurance and a small addition (dentist etc). Your Dutch still is good. If you ever come to Holland again let me know. Oh you didn't have traveller’s insurance. That explains the behaviour of the doctors. But lets not get off topic. It is true most Dutch do not like using pain killers. Dutch usually think that if you use to much painkillers they work less good. I never use any. The couple of times I went to the hospital and they gave me pain killers they wondered how much they gave me since my eyes looked like I used drugs. I do not want to be dependant on pain killers, and I want them to work the couple of time I really needed them (knee surgery, pulling my wisdom teeth). Eh actually that is the conversation you keep hearing here, I cannot speak for other countries, but here they do blame capitalism and deregulation (and the banks). Of course some disagree, but still the left is arguing that here also. I think the Dutch healthcare plan is a good plan. Everybody is insured and if people want better insurance they can get that. Cool that you grandmother had a good place to stay. some in Holland actually believe that it is sad that we just dump our elderly in these homes and not take care of them like some other cultures. Of course the Netherlands is not perfect. But it is a great country to live in.
Their conservatives are probably to the left of many Dems. The real social dems will be back next election. Among other things the Germans are getting tired of trying to conaquer Afghanistan.
Europe’s Socialists Suffering Even in Downturn http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/29/world/europe/29socialism.html PARIS — A specter is haunting Europe — the specter of Socialism’s slow collapse. Even in the midst of one of the greatest challenges to capitalism in 75 years, involving a breakdown of the financial system due to “irrational exuberance,” greed and the weakness of regulatory systems, European Socialist parties and their left-wing cousins have not found a compelling response, let alone taken advantage of the right’s failures.
Here's an interesting quote from that article: So they've gained on the socialists in popularly by becoming socialists themselves. Are you suggesting that the Republicans should do the same thing in the US?
I wonder if a national or global health insurance company could squeeze out smaller local ones, max their rates once they've got a monopoly, and then pull up their tent once the relationship with the State Regulator or local hospitals sour. Or they could hedge the health and revenue risks of one state against another: which makes complete sense commercially; but is probably not good for the fatter, poorer states full of chain smokers.
They haven't become socialist, they have compromised on a few issues. Beyond that, socialism isn't taken seriously.
